AI, Tokenization, Bitcoin, Ethereum, and the Future of Finance

[Part 1 of 8] [00:00] I couldn't have done any of it without AI. If if we had not had AI, we would be $8 billion less. We five IPOs, none of them would have happened because I used the AI to design the securities and solve all the tax problems and all the securities law issues. You know, so I like I'm a big believer in using AI to design new things. And I look, I'm just I I focus upon digital credit and security, but there's someone there thinking about how to make the car drive and cure cancer and like like aren't there like 100 million problems the human race has to solve that we that you're like, well, you're going to need a thousand people with PhDs to solve that. Well, guess what? Now every 16-year-old has a thousand PhDs at their fingertips and so I'm very bullish. The world's going to be a much better place and and we're going to see an age of empowerment and and abundance because of digital technology. [01:01] People are greedy when they also try to acquire gold. Not really. I mean, people who buy gold are trying to preserve. centuries. We have centuries of people being greedy to go ahead and acquire gold. Well, no, well, you're talking about to acquire wealth. Yes, people are greedy in that they want they want more things and there's nothing wrong with that. But when they're converting what they've earned into gold, that's not the greed part. That's the preservation part. I I I've I've earned all this money because I was greedy. Now I don't want to lose it. I want to store it so I can use it later. I don't want to blow it all right now. I want to hold on to it. And, you know, gold is a way to do that. You can't really do that in a fiat currency that's just being printed, you know, into oblivion. So, uh, but but but, you know, the greed is in the speculative frenzy that accompanies Bitcoin. [01:54] They tell me that I'm the reason they own Bitcoin because they listened to me years ago about economics, about sound money and and and the Fed and inflation, and I'm the one that got them. Plus, there's a lot of new technology in Midnight that's going to make the use of Cardano safer. Like Midnight passport will be the fastest, safest, and easiest way to use Cardano. So, we gain all the usability and transparency. So, if you plus I'd argue Midnight is an essential component for Bitcoin. Bitcoin D5. When you look at that side of it, you're like, okay, Bitcoin users, they want privacy. So, Cardano could do a lot of the heavy lifting on the programming side, but what if the private coordination layer is just for that? So, we're actually working on this program, our Bitcoin D5 setup, we'll be calling it the the circle. So, you start with Bitcoin and Taproot. I'm going to put 50 Bitcoins with my own money into this. It's pretty good. It works. So, you start with Taproot and uh Bitcoin, you lend it to a stable coin. So, that'll occur on Cardano through a specialized transaction through the bridge. And then that stable coin would then be deployed into a yield bearing instrument. And then as you make yield, the yield is converted to Bitcoin and then it's sent to your Taproot. And then Midnight coordinates all of it with privacy. So, you have like all three networks working together, and you have this circle, and then from the Bitcoin user's perspective, you just give them a button, make money, click the button. And then it locks their Bitcoin, they just start generating a yield, the security actually enters the Taproot on the Bitcoin network. So, it meets my three rules that I have for Bitcoin D5. One, there's only thing no other Bitcoin. Bitcoin, Litecoin is better money than than fiat, obviously. It's also better money than gold. I think it's I believe it's the best form of money that um humans have ever come across. Right? Money being good, being that it's um it's inflation proof, right? No one, no single person, company or like government can print more money, right? Can print money in ways the money you're holding. Uh, you're storing, right? That's kind of one of the key things about money. If you're working hard to make money, you don't want that money to kind of disappear over time, not from your own doing. Right? So, that's that's key in Bitcoin and Litecoin and uh most cryptocurrencies. Um, it is able to to do that. [04:14] I could have the argument that real estate's better than Bitcoin. For a number of reasons, by the way, depending on who you are. Um, your audience could probably disagree because they're probably a bunch of, you know, Bitcoin maximalists. [04:28] They don't have as much Bitcoin as the real estate guy. By the way. No, I I'll tell you right now, hold on, one second. See, that's the funny thing, dude. That me and my brother were talking about this yesterday. You know, the guys that know the most seem to have the least. [04:43] 100%. That that I can probably agree with you on. [04:48] I think it should be a bigger issue within the crypto system and the ecosystem. What do you think? [04:52] I think it will be. I think privacy is going to be the new If you want to In my view, and this is what I'm tasking the research professionals at Millstream to sort of figure out. I think that these stand out shitcoin or, you know, few shitcoins of 2026 to 2028 will be related some way shape or form to privacy. We already saw the, you know, amazing move of Zcash over the last few months. Yes, it's down 50% from the 780 high, but I think again, my goal is, you know, my mental model is 10 to 20% the value of Bitcoin. That's Zcash. Um and so, so much higher than where it is today. But, you know, taking away Zcash, what is the token project or protocol that's going to utilize some privacy technology, I'll be something like ZK, zero knowledge proofs to do something whether that's quantum resistant, you know, the overlords can't deanonymize their data or, you know, see what we're doing, whatever it is, right? These are the things that we're latently afraid of of of what bad things that could happen with this proliferation of big tech, big government. [06:02] Donald Trump getting elected and knowing that we share friends in the White House for all the populist parties of Europe who are under attack. Every single populist leader. If you look at the leaders, and my last documentary was called Silence. I got 18 months in prison for my last documentary. The reason I aired it was because the documentary was so bigger than me. It's exactly what they're doing. Lawfare has been waged against if you go through, I pick any of them. Pick Geert Wilders, the leader of the Dutch party. Pick Marine Le Pen. Any politician in Europe, yeah? Anyone, pick anyone who has stood up and tried to speak against immigration, and you will see a history. Matteo Salvini, I was with him two days ago, the deputy Prime Minister of of Italy, was prosecuted in 2020. They said he kidnapped because he stopped the boat. He was prosecuted in 2021. He was then charged of other crimes. The process is the punishment. Every political leader who's tried to step up was charged. You saw what they've done to Bannon. You saw what they've done to Alex Jones. You saw what they're trying to do to Trump. That's happening across the board. of their authoritarian state. But I think it's probably because they elected Trump. I'm very optimistic about the future. More it's not because they're not in control. The public already, the public is awake. [07:19] So, the other thing about it here is just a lot of political power. So, you know, it's going to have a huge impact on the 2024 election. And there are races that were absolutely going to be on our still in play because there's no money coming in. And it keeps things like the Cardano alive, which has been changed a lot. I've had many conversations to try to get it into a better shape and hopefully September 15th will actually be able to get it over the line. Now, a lot of people here for they actually did. There's over 200 pages of adjustments and modifications and other things. I don't think anybody realizes what works on it. I I talked to Charles and I said, today is just terrible. He said, you know, we worked on this three times longer than Obama worked on his. And that we have a response to 2008 financial crisis. [08:04] This isn't politics and the need to get crypto and our industry out of these partisan debates, out of these partisan issues. It's really not healthy to treat any technology as some kind of political pawn. This isn't about Republicans, this isn't about Democrats. This is about freedom. This is about getting people access to their assets online. This is about allowing them to transact globally without an intermediary, without the economy of salvation, without invasion, this is about future finance. This isn't about red versus blue. We need to get out of that. [08:37] They've been very negative on Bitcoin and crypto. They've even published statements calling it rat poison 2.0 or pet rocks or, you know, you know, name your name your funny name. Now these same institutions have now understood. What first got you excited about blockchains? [08:55] Think about it. Oh, wait. I bet it wasn't multi-million dollar hacks, exposed data, or finding somewhere safe to store your seed phrase. Was it? Maybe it was the idea of decentralizing a broken financial system. Maybe it was imagining a world where people own their own data and get to share in the value it creates. Or maybe it was the promise of a fundamentally better way of connecting, communicating, and transacting. The next phase of the internet that empowers us instead of exploiting us. So, why hasn't it happened yet? Why are we still living with the same broken system that blockchains promised to fix? It's because blockchains can't keep a secret. Enabling open transparent systems was only the first half of the challenge. For blockchains to really change the world, they also have to be able to protect our sensitive data when it matters. And that's why we built Midnight to bring down the final barrier to mass adoption and unlock the full potential of the decentralized web. Let's build the internet we deserve. Together. [10:12] Ladies and gentlemen, we all know this in crypto, ownership matters. That's why Cake Wallet. Cake Wallet gives you full control of your digital assets, all in one easy to use application. You can store Bitcoin, Litecoin, Zcash, Monero, and many more with just one secure backup. Swap between coins in seconds. No copying addresses, no complicated steps, and even includes Bitcoin lightning for faster payments. And with Cake Wallet built in, you can use crypto in real life through debit cards or gift cards. Simple, secure, self-custody. Download Cake Wallet and take control of your crypto. [10:55] This is Houston. G minus one minute until full data blackout. All eyes are on you. Breaking news. There's an astronaut conducting an emergency repair on a global communication satellite that could go dark at any moment. We have a second angle on this. Is that guy on FOMO? Oh, yeah. He's like me for crazy crazy. Yeah, let's get back to it, everybody. Opportunity cost is simply this. Every position you take is a position you choose to not take something else. This just in. According to the astronaut's follow-up report, the highest in the room, the satellite has been restored. Yes. For now, the crisis appears to be over. Satellite's up and running. Positions look good, too. [12:42] There we go. United States of America representing. Social optimism does not work. Digital assets. Is it better to move money at the speed of light? People are greedy when they also try to acquire gold. I'm here providing electricity and that energy that is necessary. I'm the modern day Tony Stark. [13:13] There we go. United States of America representing. Social optimism does not work. Digital assets. Is it better to move money at the speed of light? People are greedy when they also try to acquire gold. I'm here providing electricity and that energy that is necessary. I'm the modern day Tony Stark. [13:44] There we go. United States of America representing. Social optimism does not work. Digital assets. Is it better to move money at the speed of light? People are greedy when they also try to acquire gold. I'm here providing electricity and that energy that is necessary. I'm the modern day Tony Stark. [14:15] There we go. United States of America representing. Social optimism does not work. Digital assets. Is it better to move money at the speed of light? People are greedy when they also try to acquire gold. I'm here for Maybe I'm just bugging out. Maybe I'm just bugging out, but I'm looking at Tik Tok. Am I live on Tik Tok or no? Am I just let's go ahead and look. Let's see if we're live. Let's see if we're live and streaming on Tik Tok. Says I'm streaming on on Tik Tok. So I'm I'm a little bit lost. I'm a little bit confused. Anyway, welcome to the breakdown episode 810. 10 episodes in in the 800s. Let me go ahead and put this pin on. Can somebody tell me if I'm live on Tik Tok? Are we having technical difficulties with Tik Tok? Have I been thrown off of Tik Tok and I haven't even been on Tik I haven't even gone live yet. Anyway, welcome, welcome, welcome. You are you are you know what? You should be honored that I go ahead and put on the live button every single day and I go live to go ahead and break down all the news from crypto, digital assets, traditional markets, AI, politics. The most livest one representing B well, man, I was about to freestyle. Anyway, sponsored by Midnight. Title sponsor is Midnight. Friday we go into Midnight City. By the way, guess who's coming on today? Charles Hoskinson. Charles will be joining us later today. Maybe it's a error on my part. Maybe we are It's every time I refresh, it says it's live and then it doesn't go live. I don't even know. Let me let me let me reset this son of a bitch. Okay. But we are if we're live on Tik Tok, shout out to Tik Tok. All right. Hopefully, hopefully it's two days in the row. Hopefully it's two days in the row that we get to participate with each other. Have some fun with each other. How do I find myself on here then? Oh, there I am. There I am. There I am. Why is it telling me to do anyway, yesterday was a monumental day. Yesterday was a monumental day for us on Tik Tok. We made it through the show without without being restricted or having our visibility restricted. Shout out to Tik Tok. Oh my God, coming through in the clutch. Also, shout out to YouTube. Shout out to X, formerly known as Twitter. We stream on there. For those who just want to listen to a podcast and don't want to see this gorgeous face. You can go on Apple Podcast, Spotify, I Heart Radio, and you can also go on to Amazon Music amongst other podcast streaming platforms. There shall be news on that too. There shall be news on that also. Not yet. Until it's confirmed, there is no news. Until it's confirmed, there is no news. Also, Polymarket is the official prediction market sponsor of the breakdown. Polymarket put something out there today. Talking about who's going to be the next press secretary or we're hiring. Hold on, the White House is hiring the next press secretary. Who should it be? I think it should be Anthony Scaramucci. I think Anthony should go in. Anthony needs to get his record back. I love you, Anthony. I'm just saying you should you need to get your record back. Okay. That record belongs to you and only you. I love I love Anthony Scaramucci. We might not agree on everything, but what a stand-up dude. I I'm telling you, I think Anthony should go back in there and uh definitely go ahead and get his record back. Definitely get his record back. 100%. Uh, but Polymarket, we'll look at Polymarket later on in the show to see where where are the people where are the people looking in terms of midterms, where who are they potentially going to vote for? That's where we're going to look with Polymarket. Cake Wallet is one of the most secure wallets. Okay. Within our industry. I say this every day. I've been saying this for years. Cake Wallet, Vic and the entire team. Look what they're doing. They've stepped it up. They they've leveled up. Vic, I think just sits in his room in his office all day long and he's just creating stuff. Besides that, radar chat, which is cool for Bitcoin Maxis, okay? Bitcoiners can now use an encrypted chat to send stats to their friends. You don't even have to be a Bitcoiner, you can use radar chat. If you want an encrypted chat, so you can have encrypted conversations with your friends, okay? Radar chat. Check that out also. And he's built a lot of things he's built in. Also, update yourself on on Cake Wallet. You can now see charts and stuff. Also, if you have a phone laying around, okay, and you're not using it, factory reset it, download cupcake from cakewallet.com. If you want to secure your Bitcoin, Litecoin, Zcash, Monero, and you don't feel comfortable with hardware, okay? Right now with everything that's happening, just go there and get it done. Fomo.family. Again, go to fomo.family. You want to see traders and what traders are doing? You go to fomo.family. You can follow me also because I'm about to get cranking and start it. I got to prove everybody. I got to prove to myself. You got to everybody. I got to send some shit to a million. No, no, no. What I mean by that is I got to get my PNL into the millions. I got to get my PNL into the millions. That's what I meant to say. Anyway, welcome to the breakdown. It's nice to see you guys. Working really hard, non-stop, looking over the news. A lot of news. We'll talk about the traditional markets, especially. We'll talk about Tesla and SpaceX and what's happening out there. Tesla, obviously, uh, they had their earnings yesterday. Uh, I sat back, I listened to it. Hopefully you did too. There's a lot of listen, you got to be diversified in every market. I've always said that to you guys. If you guys have been tuning into the show, if you tuned into my spaces, when I hosted spaces, which is like a radio show, uh, if you listened to what I would say to people like Hanak, Hanak, I'm sorry, I'm not knocking you. I would say you got to be diversified. You got to own land. You got to own traditional, you know, just stocks. Not just crypto. A lot of people think, I'm going to diversify myself in crypto. No, no, no, no. You got crypto, you get traditional. You get the traditional assets. You get precious metals. You get land. That's how you set yourself up long-term. I want to say even today, something funny happened. Something funny happened. I don't think it's well, is it funny? No, no. It it's something that before we move forward, it's something that I've talked about for a while. If you believe in something, go into it, stay in it, and then monitor it. Monitor the situation. I woke up to Satoshi, which is paired to BTC, which I went into like a month ago, a month and a half. I said, I apologize to the community when, you know, going front-facing into FOMO, into something, you know what's going to goddamn happen. Because we've seen it. People attacked me as soon as I went into Auggie. They attacked when I went into dumb money. They made sure to get enough supply to make that that shit just stay down and not go anywhere. And then then I went into Satoshi. And it's funny to watch Satoshi as it rises. You have and this is not a shot at any other community, by the way. Because I think the people in Auggie, they're waiting. And that's a good thing. Just wait, be patient. You know, I've told my friends this. Some people have been saying like, man, what should I do? And I'm like, the best thing to do is nothing. Right now in this market where there is not much liquidity hanging around, the best thing you can do is absolutely nothing. Just sit back and do nothing. How about you learn something? How about you start researching the markets? Like it doesn't have to be just me crypto. Start researching the traditional markets. Start learning AI. Again, you can go get the book, the million dollar AI playbook. You can go get that on Amazon. You can go to my website, Davidgoshine.com. You can cop it. Start learning. What if you can develop a business that makes you a million dollars way before crypto does? I'm just saying. Money isn't here yet. Money is not here yet. That that is for sure. Money's not here yet. So no no need to panic. Money is definitely not here yet. It's not. It will be. The money will come in here. We will have liquidity, but the money isn't here yet. And that's okay. It gives you more time. You know, like I said yesterday if you tuned into the show, I want another pullback. What was that a day or two ago? I've been well, I've been saying this every day on the show. I want a pullback. I want another pullback. I want to get more. I want to get more crypto. I want to get more digital assets that I believe in. I want to get more Solana. I want to get more Bitcoin. I want to get more Ethereum. Okay. I I I I want to get Cardano. I want to get Midnight, Zcash. like there are a lot of things Chainlink. I I I I want to continue to accumulate these things because I know like a lot of these things like even Chainlink. Even Chainlink. Y'all followed me or some of you guys have followed me since let's say 16, 17. I talked about Chainlink at 30 cents. You can see it. It's on the timeline. Chainlink is is literally in bed with everybody. They're going to use Chainlink to tokenize real world assets. I mean like they're using Chainlink. XRP, they're going to use XRP as well. You heard it yesterday. Stephen was on from Stephen was on. Talking about, hey, XRP made mention of XRP. I you know what? I'm sitting here and thinking. I think you know, Stephen said something from Canary. For those who don't know, he's the CEO of Canary. He said something

[Part 2 of 8] [00:00] They hit me yesterday. I don't know if you guys saw my face. But when he said, he mentioned XRP and then he mentioned how outdated Ethereum is. [00:10] And I I I'm paraphrasing, but [00:14] you can sit back and you can say, [00:21] XRP is probably built for the institutions. [00:28] So it it is probably a race between Ethereum and XRP, but XRP their whole mindset has always been institutional players, banks. [00:43] I mean, I got into what? I got into XRP still holding. My hands hurt. [00:53] I remember when I said XRP and of course, the people that can't, you know, have a a grade level of third grade graduates. I said XRP because David Schwartz, when I had an interview with David Schwartz, he um, he said XRP essentially can hold 10,000, one XRP token coin can go ahead and hold $10,000 worth of value when transferring. And I made mention of that on on Twitter. I said that and people like, how dare you say XRP is going to $10,000? I said, no. I said XRP the the the coin, the token itself can hold up to $10,000 in value. [01:49] And right away, everybody who hates XRP came out the woodwork. Everybody who hates XRP came out the woodwork, go ahead and come at your boy. [02:01] I was like, yo, what the fuck did I say? What did I say? Y'all are crazy. Y'all are absolutely, you know what? I think XRP, you know, and the army will probably be like, oh my god, DG's talking about XRP for the first time. I think XRP is probably a sleeper. [02:24] If you're talking about, we are going into, [02:30] we are going into a new era of crypto. And I and I I don't think people are really looking because you guys are stuck on things that just came off of a launchpad. That's the problem. And it's, listen, it's not your fault. It's not your fault, it's what your, it's what your mind has adapted itself to. This space has become that. You've been you've been a patient person. A lot of you guys have been patiently waiting throughout multiple cycles, holding things that you believe in, but you don't believe in things anymore because you're looking at the current state of crypto and you're like, you know what? I need to do what these people are doing. I see these kids talking about they made 40,000, $40 million off of Trump, even though now it's coming out, reports are coming out that that never happened. It was more like six to seven million, which is still nice, but the numbers have been exaggerated. [03:21] And this is about, you know, I'll tag the person. It's basically Kimchi. That's what they were talking about. Kimchi did not make $40 million. He made around six to seven million. Again, I'm just reporting what's being reported out there, okay? [03:37] You're looking at numbers though and lifestyles. And which I said, somebody should get into this kid's ear and and I get people want to be famous. I respect it too. You want to be famous. You want to be out there, but with fame comes a target. And this kid is young. He's traveling all over the place. If you think, [03:57] people don't got their eyes set on you, [04:00] trust, they do. [04:06] Trust. [04:10] You rather, you rather make money. You rather make money. Like like everybody in the Wall Street world. 95% of the people on Wall Street make money, they don't talk about it. They don't they're not going to tell you about it. You even meet when people get interviewed, when they're asked for their network, I'm not talking about it. Only like the 1% of them will talk about the network because they got that ego and they want to show you. You don't need that. [04:40] Anyway, what I'm saying is, what I see happening now is with RWAs coming on chain, right? The tokenization the tokenization of stocks. This is where I see us going. We are going into a place where I think most people are tired. I don't even think, I know most people are tired. Most people are tired of the rat race, really in crypto. Forget about in the real world, but in crypto, they're tired of chasing. They just want to find a home. Some have found a home on with real projects. Hey, we had Sakasa on here, Jungle Bay, shout out to them. But like some people just want to find real assets, park their money there. They also want to look at what's happening, what's new. [05:26] And maybe it's better off, you know, maybe you're better off trading Tesla on chain. Maybe you're better off going into SpaceX. Like why would I go into anything else besides the majors in crypto? [05:42] Why would I not go into SpaceX? Why why would I go into the trash that comes off these Do you understand what I'm saying? You're going to have a lot of people that say, you know what? I'm tired of this bullshit. [05:53] Like, I don't want to deal with this stuff. [05:58] I don't I don't want to be going into things with hopes and dreams. [06:03] That potentially it might work out. [06:07] Like that's not why you came to crypto, by the way. That's not why I came to crypto. That's not the thesis of crypto. If you look at the thesis, it's been written out, the white paper. It wasn't about gambling. [06:18] When you are praying to God, when you are praying to God, by the way, for your and how many times have I said this? If you're praying to God hoping that your particular token project works out, it's time to leave. When you're praying that it breaks even, it's time to leave. [06:43] If I ever get to the point where I'm praying to just break even, I I'm out. [06:49] And I know that I made the wrong decision. [06:54] You rather take the loss and go somewhere. [06:58] Like if you put, if you put 10 G's into something and you're down to 1,000, I'd rather take the $1,000 loss, especially when I look at the goddamn project. The I'm the only community member. I'm now the dev, okay? The the the, you know, administrator keys have been thrown onto me. If I'm the only person in the project, it's time to leave. [07:24] I'm just saying. It is time to leave. [07:28] And what do I always say? Look at your ports, man. But anyway, I think, this is the first time that I'm really talking about XRP. It really is because after having the CEO of Canary on here, it made me think. It made me think a little bit more about, hey man, we are having this transition. I don't think people are watching how we're slowly, even retail is slowly going into, whatever retail is here, is I don't believe retail has come back to crypto. That the the data that I have concludes that retail is not back. They haven't been back since 2021. [08:04] The people that are here, dabbling, still talking, cool, but we we don't got 30,000, 30,000 people on X space. [08:16] We don't have that. In 2021, we did. It was a special time. We'll have that again. I think this will be the biggest bull run of all time. Bigger than 2021. I believe that. And then you have AI, and I keep talking about this. You have AI, you have crypto AI, and they they will come together, they need each other. And the amount of money that will come in, and this is not about the IPOs that will come out from obviously the Anthropic and Open AI. I'm talking about in general, businesses will be built using AI. You will have more millionaires created in the next three to five years than you did with the internet. [08:59] And it's grand opening. [09:03] 20 to 25 years of that. Like I'm telling you, you will have in the next three to five years, you know, one man, one to three people in a in in a goddamn company, the rest being run by AI bots and AI agents, multi-million dollar businesses. More than and this is the time. This is this is easy. There are so many problems that need to be nipped in the butt. You can easily figure it out. I've given you an I've given you multiple examples. And I guarantee you a lot of people, a lot of people have not even lifted a finger to try to even learn AI. To try to even understand it. We've had phenomenal guests, by the way, come on here talking about AI every single day for the last two to three weeks. We've been talking, we've had big time guests on here talking about AI. What have you done with that information is the question. Have you done anything? [10:07] Somebody said Ethereum, I believe in Ethereum, but Ethereum doesn't believe in me. [10:16] That's funny. That's funny, man. You know, Ethereum's biggest downfall to me, and look, it still has the biggest, you know, it has all the money's on Ethereum. Let's let's put it that way. Massive amounts of money on Ethereum. [10:32] But Ethereum did something where it hurt itself, L2s. [10:37] You have Charles Hoskinson that comes on here, who I would say a year and a half ago, told you what was going to happen with Ethereum. Nobody listened. Again, will Ethereum rise? Yeah. I mean, like, look, JP Morgan is going to be using Ethereum, besides Base, it's going to be using Ethereum, um, to go ahead and facilitate transactions, liabilities and all. So, Ethereum could along with Robinhood in play, obviously, Robinhood, Robinhood and Base, besides the institutions, it will be up to Robinhood and Base to go ahead and lift it out of that grave. I still believe that Ethereum hits 10. I I still got to believe that it hits 10. [11:26] I got to believe it hits 10. [11:29] It's 12:42 p.m. on the East Coast. It's three hours behind. Well, the L2s are trash. I'll tell you why the L2s are trash. Because if Ethereum were to be getting a fair share of the revenue, then it would make sense to have the L2s. But Ethereum gets nothing. Like it gets pennies compared to what the L2s get. I don't even know how it makes financial sense. And then how do they how do they pay their programmers? And now we're in an AI era. Which speaking of AI, AI, Open AI, goes and finds two critical problems with PHP. [12:10] And you got the the whole, hey, you got an alert goes out saying, hey guys, it would be good to go ahead and shut down your websites right now. [12:22] We're not ready. You know who's ready though? You know who's ready for this? Crypto. [12:29] We've we've dealt with so much bullshit here. We've dealt with so much hacks and attacks and all that stuff. I think we're a little bit more prepared than, what did I say? Classical computers and classical websites. We're way more prepared. I'm not saying we're in a better position, but way more prepared. We will be attacked though. Obviously, a baby industry will be attacked. And, you know, hackers will go ahead and use super intelligence towards their advantage, like giving them extra superpowers. [13:02] But Ethereum, man, disappointment. It is a it is right now a disappointment. I know my ETH maxi friends will be absolutely devastated by what I say, but it is true. It's it's been a disappointment. I leaving, you know, proof of work to proof of stake. [13:19] I can go on and on and on. I can really go on and on and on about it. Maybe we will later on today. Go on and on and on. We'll talk about Tesla and SpaceX, the latest, obviously, latest developments. Uh, let's bring on our guest here. Now, I don't want to butcher, I could. I don't want to though. I don't want to butcher the name, okay? So I'm going to allow him to say it. Nice to have you on, my friend. [13:46] [Guest: Ludovico] Hi, David. How are you? This is the weekend. [13:48] [David] How do you say your I don't want to butcher your name. How do you say it correctly? [13:52] [Guest: Ludovico] Ludovico. Yeah, you can call me Ludo. [13:55] [David] I'm going to call you Lou. Okay? [13:56] [Guest: Ludovico] Ludo. Ludo, yeah. [13:58] [David] Ludo. What's going on, man? It's nice to have you on. [14:01] [Guest: Ludovico] Thank you for inviting. Yeah, all good. [14:04] [David] What are you thinking about when you look at the markets right now? You know, what are your thoughts? I've been rambling about the markets, but what are your thoughts about the markets? [14:12] [Guest: Ludovico] I mean, I think I changed my thoughts many times during my crypto life, let's say. Uh, I'm positive. I'm positive about business. I'm positive about real business on crypto. That that's the thing. I think that finally, I mean, we'll see some maturity. Uh, as you, I mean, as you man, I mean, you're wearing a cool suit, right? And then the white collar guys are finally approaching this technology that before they were leaving behind, you know? So, yeah, I'm positive. I'm definitely positive. I'm positive about about real businesses. That's the thing. [14:47] [David] I just want to clarify that I've been wearing this suit since 16. So I'm not a part of the suit committee. I just like suits. That's it. I like things that are tailored and tight to the tight to the skin. All right. Tell me a little I love suits as well. There you go, man. Listen. I'm Eastern European. I'm I'm out there in Europe. You know how it is? Parents always parents always said dress up in a suit. That's I I would go out to the city, I'd be dressed up in a suit, okay? That that's my dad's in a suit. Clean. I don't know. It's different I'm a first generation American, but it's different here. Anyway, I don't know why we're talking about suits right now. It is what it is. I should get a suit sponsor for this. [15:32] [David] Tell me more about your company. Break it down for me real quick. [15:36] [Guest: Ludovico] Okay, so, uh, I'm Chief Operating Officer and co-founder of Briken. So Briken is a RWA infrastructure. So we are not issuers. We are just the providers of the of the infrastructure for tokenization, okay? We count today with more than 150 clients across then 40 different countries and how do we do that is because we provide infrastructure and then we count with a full ecosystem of partners where we match the issuers with the local law firms, for example, distribution partners and so on. So, basically, think about like e-commerce and Shopify. Something like that, but more broad and fully focused on RWA and of course, agentic economy, that is the future you just mentioned it before. [16:25] [David] What made you interested about RWAs? When was when did you have that moment where you said, all right, I got to pivot here. Like where did you start? You you came in obviously into crypto, right? And then something happened where you light bulb goes off and says, okay, I got to pivot. RWAs. Nobody and I remember for a while, nobody's really talking about it. Nobody's really taking it seriously. When was the pivot? [16:50] [Guest: Ludovico] Man, the pivot was way before than the word RWA was existing, actually. So, 2020, end of 2020, we funded the company. Uh 2021, we started to push on the accelerator, uh on this business. Uh since the beginning, it was clear there was like a multi-trillion dollar opportunity. It was like, okay, let's work on it, right? Uh tokenization, I mean, it was a big promise since uh 2015, you know? Uh, but then, I mean, it's becoming a reality today. So, thanks God that also we have been able to survive so far. Uh, many projects, I mean, closed uh before. The thing is, uh now, finally, we are prepared in position to serve this wave, right? That is coming. So, it was uh late 2020, it was like, okay, we should go for tokenization. Of course, it was real estate, the first vertical in it. It was like, no, no, let's go for infrastructure. I think it's a more strategic position and we can serve the market from behind and study and let's have also having also like access to a lot of data, right? So, that was the interesting decision. [17:59] [David] Does it help your company that you have BlackRock, obviously, the CEO of BlackRock comes out, believes in tokenization. Other institutional players come out, they talk about tokenization. You have tokenization of assets, 24/7, you know, tokenized assets being traded on chain. When these things and announcements happen, makes it more easier for you to go ahead and conduct business on your side of then? [18:27] [Guest: Ludovico] Absolutely, yes, for to get credibility. But important things, I mean, the flexing flexing point was when RWA came up. You know, so thanks God to whoever invented that term and definition, because before everything was uh just a security. And security is SCC and uh it's complicated stuff, you know, it scares people, right? So everybody was like, what do you do? Securities? No, I go for utilities, utility tokens, right? And then with RWAs, I mean, the perception changed a lot. So, that was the first big help in the market. And then the second was, of course, Larry Fink going out there and saying, okay, this is I changed my mind and this is the future of finance. [19:13] [David] Because it gives you credibility, right? Because you have a company here, you're telling you're talking to clients. They're they're trying to wrap their heads around it. But then, you know, no matter how much you know, and this is what I've obviously learned throughout the years. I've been here for a decade plus. No matter how much I can say or talk about Bitcoin or you can talk about RWA, whatever it is within the ecosystem. If a Jim Cramer comes out on CNBC or you have obviously somebody from BlackRock or an institutional player come out and say, you know what? This is the next next thing, tokenization. Your grandmother and your aunt and uncle are going to believe them over you. No matter how much they love you, it's just like, oh my god, did you know what? I was watching TV and Larry Fink came out and said tokenization is the next thing. This is unbelievable. I've been telling you this for fucking five, six years, man. You have what the So again, it obviously it gives you, you know, it gives you some sort of, you know, from my standpoint, you should be thrilled and happy. It doesn't, you know, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter who it comes from. As long as you've established the platform, that's the best part. [20:27] [Guest: Ludovico] Yeah, absolutely. No, it was really, really helpful. But it also, I mean, it was uh kind of a news in the sense that, I mean, DeFi was coming like uh bottom up. And the tokenization top down, right? So, we started from BlackRock number one as a management in the world. And then now we are scaling down, right? And that that was interesting also in the space seeing something like that. [20:53] [David] So I want to ask you something. In plain English, what can an AI agent do, uh, because we talked about agentic trading. What can an agent uh do uh with somebody's money under your system, what they can uh what can't it do and what can it shut off? [21:12] [Guest: Ludovico] Okay, this is an interesting question. So, my first I I revert the question. So, David, do you trust agents today? Do you will you give your access to your wallet to an agent today? [21:21] [David] Can't trust and verify. [21:24] [Guest: Ludovico] Okay, but will you give full access to your wallet to an agent today? [21:32] [David] Yes and no. So that's like, well, you have the you know, you have that wallet dedicated. Okay, here's money that I'm okay with losing, right? It's kind of like the same way you go into assets. I can afford to lose this amount of money, right? At least in my this is my I'm a risk taker. Don't be me, okay? But here's a wallet, here's some money. Let's see what you can do. But trusting an agent right now, there's way too it's it's way too early to go ahead and have any trust. [22:02] [Guest: Ludovico] Exactly. And I perfectly agree with you, right? But something that was missing in the market was like, okay, when we have an agent trading and acting in regulated markets, representing you or another principle, it can can be BlackRock, you know? And going around scouting uh different assets and then rebalancing positions, right? Through their portfolios. I mean, you need to give to that agent a mandate, you know, because he's representing you. But also some limits, right? So, this is something that also we have been working on. Uh, it's called like open source RAMs, ERC 226, but it's a product, we call it Kyros internally, and it's really the ability to give the agent limits and mandates like a credit card, you know? And now, he can only spend in those limits, only with those assets. It's preventing any action that you don't want him to perform. So, it's it's preventive and not tracking, you know? So, we can really bring a solution to the market. And everything that checks, actually, is interesting. I'm coming from the asset itself. So, it's the asset saying, hey, I can be traded here with this kind of investors in this jurisdiction. And now the mandate is checking all this. If everything is green, then the agent can perform. Otherwise not. And thanks to this, maybe, I mean, I will, I'm trusting more uh the agents, right? And now I can give them access to my wallet without any problem. [23:35] [David] Again, I'm crazy. Listen to him though. Like again, I'm just like, you know, it is what it is kind of thing because I'm testing. You know, like I I'm, you know, I say this I I've been saying this for weeks now. If 1% of the entire world is in or playing around with AI, whether it's AI, you know, I don't want to say AI agents, but I think most people use AI to search up things like people search on Google. Like, hey, let me like find me a restaurant within like 500 Italian restaurant within a 500, you know, mile radius of me. Whereas like 10% of us are actually trying to use it, trying to figure out AI agents, how how they work. The AI bots, Grokbot has come out. That's made life easier. I think I think Elon's ahead of the game. I'm I'm waiting for Claude to come out with I think Duet. I think that's what it's called. And we shall see, you know, uh, where where those scales uh shift. Let let's ask you this. If you have an AI agent, if an AI agent makes a bad trade, who's on the hook? The bank, the developer or the agent? [24:44] [Guest: Ludovico] The agent. No. I mean, the responsible of that, of course, is behind the agents, of course. So, is uh the principle behind. [24:54] [David] Nvidia just started uh [24:55] [Guest: Ludovico] Who will respond for that, you know? So. [24:58] [David] Well, somebody's going to blame somebody. Like it's not going to even matter. It's like the agent can go ahead and go rogue. They're going to be like, well, you're the one who created it. And now again, this is where insurance is going to come in big. You're going to have insurance, you have to have insurance in crypto. Somebody's going to create it. Uh especially for [25:16] [Guest: Ludovico] It's already there. It's already there. [25:17] [David] But like it really, you know, I know they're just starting up, but like we need that one. It has there has to be insurance. Okay? There there 100%. You because there you're not going to have multi-millionaires come into this industry, whether it's crypto or AI. And the reason why I talk about both of them, because I think they both need each other. The they they both 100% need each other. You're not going to have multi-millionaires though go in here and be like, okay, I'm going to pray that my millions of dollars that I put on chain, I'm going to pray that everything's going to be good. And and and and somehow I'm going to get my money back. We've seen cold card. Things happen with cold card, people's money got drained. They got an ad boy, don't worry, you'll make it back one day. Millions of dollars got drained out of somebody's wallet. They did everything correctly and they lost money and all they got was an ad boy. Nvidia just started selling uh guard rails for AI agents. Does that help?

[Part 3 of 8] [David] [00:00] your company or compete with you? [Guest: Name] [00:04] I think that uh is not competing, but uh if it would be on chain, I think we would share the same solution. [David] [00:14] And what and exactly what is that in terms of the same solution? [Guest: Name] [00:17] Yeah, I mean I mean I think the market is uh made of standards, right? I mean everything has a standard, every market, right? So in this case when you want to limit and give a mandate to an agent, etc, okay, guide rails can be against hallucination, etc, right? Yeah. So but if we want to limit actually the actions, the acts of the agents, we should use the same standard. And that that I think that uh the 8226 will become this standard in that thing because actually we designed it for RWA. But you can use it for locking and avoiding the agent to send emails to the wrong partner or whoever, you know? So [David] [01:00] What do you think is the biggest problem? Like when you look at you know, the development, what do you what do you think is the biggest still till this day which you're trying to maybe fix. What do you think is the biggest problem to get it to where it's nearly perfect? What is what is what needs to be like really nipped in the butt for it to be like 100% just elite? [Guest: Name] [01:25] I think it's a mix of things. So, the first one is uh of course like against hallucination, right? And then the other one is like just putting a hard stop on on things. [David] [01:39] The hallucination part, is it better than it was before though? I don't mean to cut you off, but is it better let's say than it was three years ago? [Guest: Name] [01:46] I think so, definitely yes. I mean, from my experience, personal experience, absolutely yes. Maybe also because as we are better with guard rails, now everybody, I mean, knows how to put guard rails and prompt well, right? And on the other side, I mean, the model, I mean, the LLM is way more evoluted, right? So it's way better. [David] [02:09] That that's my biggest thing. I think I've seen the hallucinations calm down since, you know, since I started using AI till now, I mean, like again, you got to watch it. Because, you know, [Guest: Name] [02:20] I mean, no critical thinking and uh you just deliver outputs from AI that's, I mean, AI is making mistakes, right? Do we agree on that? So, I mean, critical thinking I think is the only key to save ourselves to make mistakes. So always review the AI outputs. [David] [02:40] Goldman, Microsoft, Alphabet push back on tokenized versions of their stock. Can tokenization work if big companies don't want it? [Guest: Name] [02:51] I saw the news. Interesting move. Uh, didn't understand yet why. I think the answer will be, okay, everybody will do it and they will jump on it in the future because everything will be tokenized and will be recorded in chain. So, I mean, it's just uh maybe later, you know? [David] [03:14] I think what happens is you have a bunch of people that are accustomed to using one system. And now you talk about tokenization, they don't really understand it. They don't know what you know, you we say RWA, but they don't understand what it is. They don't even understand the abbreviation at all. And and and they're like, no, no, we'll push it we'll push against this. But yet, this could benefit their companies. This can benefit Apple. This can benefit Microsoft, Goldman, all of them. If they actually had somebody who understood how this all works. And that that's that's why we're so early. We're early because these people do not understand how this all works. Last question would be, why would a bank use your company instead of building its own system like BNY did? [Guest: Name] [04:08] I mean, I do think that building technology today is not something that everybody should do. I mean, I think that everybody should more focus on business because it's their core business, right? And then leave the technology to the right partner. So today we count with SDK integration, I mean, it's really easy. I mean, the technology is really there. There's no need to build more and more and different technology. I understand everybody want to be different and have control on everything. I think there are other ways to do it, but the right partner, I mean, is uh like uh your partner in life, right? [David] [04:45] Yeah. [Guest: Name] [04:46] You go on that side business and I provide you the best rest to do it. And going back to the Apple and the stocks, etc. something that would really help them. I mean, the promise of tokenization is operational efficiency today and liquidity tomorrow, right? So we should say to Tim Cook and ask him, how many millions in fees he's paying every year just to distribute dividends among the shareholders, right? And uh with tokenization in one transaction, he might distribute billions to millions of investors just drinking like a margarita on the beach. So that that's a big change. [David] [05:34] We still got a lot of work to do. I, I appreciate uh you coming on and uh hopefully I can get you back on in the next uh month or two or maybe three and we can go ahead and have more discussions on your program and and where it's at uh especially with RWAs and all that good stuff. [Guest: Name] [05:53] Whenever you want. Thank you, David. [David] [05:55] I appreciate you, man. Have a good one. [Guest: Name] [05:57] You too. Bye. Bye, everyone. [David] [06:02] All right. Welcome back to the breakdown. I mean, I hope in the green room, I really hope in the green room, they actually, you know, Charles Hoskinson should be getting the finest of finest of waters. Okay? And some really like, where the Skittles staff? This is absolutely, why are my guests coming on here? Why are my guests coming on here with no with nothing? With nothing in the green room? And then you wonder why it takes them a month to come back. I wouldn't want to come on this show either. Doesn't matter how good the host is. Doesn't matter how good the show is. Person sitting there in the back waiting. Starving. Charles will be on in the next 30 seconds. Welcome to the breakdown. This show is sponsored by Midnight. Okay, Midnight. A lot of stuff to talk about Midnight. A lot to talk about Midnight. Charles is out there just absolutely crushing it. The whole team at Midnight is crushing it. Shout out to Midnight. Fridays, obviously, we go into Midnight City and we look and see what we're doing out there. Especially me if I'm still just hammering away and mining. Um again, in the next 10 seconds, we will have Charles Hoskinson on here. Uh also talk to him about, hey, man. Charles is out there talking to to all these big big suits. And when I mean big suits, it's not Wall Street. I'm talking about Congress. He's out there sitting I watched the video. He laid it down, man. He laid it down. And we'll talk more about it. Charles is on here with us. Charles, what's going on? It's good to see you, my friend. [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [07:58] That goddamn green room, man. It's just a steel chair, a weird old Soviet woman. Like, what's what's going on, David? [David] [08:07] Listen, we couldn't afford anybody else. The Soviet woman comes in handy. She's she's good. Uh, I don't even know where to I got so many questions for you. I don't even know where to start. But I I guess where I want to start before we go into Midnight, we go into Cardano, we go into Justin Sun Tron, you know, Tron Dow coming There's so much to unpack. All right. It it was dope to see you sitting there and breaking everything down in front of a committee. You know, for all this shit that you Yeah, I mean like for all this shit that you get, right? Who is actually going out there in our space and sitting down and talking about our ecosystem and how we can benefit the world? Like, who's doing that? Take a round of give him a round of applause. How was that? How did you find that? [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [09:05] Well, I mean, I had a lot of fun. You know, going to the UN and uh the European Union guys were there, you know, I said, I don't trust you Europeans. You're going to fuck us. Um, but uh, you know, I just got to call a spade a spade. Um, you know, all this stuff is happening at the same time. You got synthetic biology and matter printing, nanotechnology, you got quantum computing, you got AI, you got blockchain, and you got all these wars going on, you know, like China's going to probably go after Taiwan, you got Russia with Ukraine, we got a whole bunch of shit with Iran. It's just not a good time. And uh everybody's like 80, you know, fucking Biden was old, Trump is old. Uh and they're kind of living in the old 20th century paradigm and they're trying to keep up with it, but the rate of change in one year is equivalent to like 10 years to 15 years. Um, and so the world is just not sure what to do. And what I'm trying to say is, well, okay, the number one problem that we have in the world right now is a loss loss of faith and trust in institutions. Because when you have all this big crazy shit going on, it's it's a high complexity problem. The point of an institution is to reduce complexity and give you simple answers, okay? Instead of all this weird shit, A or B. But if you don't trust the institution, institution can't make a recommendation or if it makes a recommendation, you won't accept it because you think the institution's evil or stupid or corrupt or all of the above. That's the number one problem. So I said, look, blockchain, if it solves any problem at all, is it gives you a path to transform an institution from don't be evil to can't be evil. Then we can trust the institution again, then we can utilize the institution, start reducing complexity and then once we've gotten rid of a lot of this complexity, we can get back to a peaceful, well-ordered world. Um, and you know, hypothetically, you know, on the high level, the UN people agree with that. Um, and a lot of regulators and policy makers agree with that. The devil's in the details though, because if they don't get it, they regress back to, yes, but I still want total control. And it's kind of like Bane in The Dark Knight Rises, where he's like, do you feel in charge? Like, you're not in charge. You're really not in charge. You have no power, you're not in control anymore. You think you're in control, you're not in control. So they have to accept that they're no longer unilaterally able to with a pen and paper and laws and regulations to steer the destiny of the world. And any attempt to do so is going to create social instability. And you see this with the flock cams, you see this with Palantir, you see this with the CBDC programs where they want to have asset transaction discrimination. That's what I was telling off the EU because I said the minute you guys have that power, David's going to be on vacation in Italy and he's going to try to fill up his little Vespa. And I said, oh, I'm sorry, you you can't buy any more fuel. You're not authorized to buy fuel. I got this money. I'm making the money. You know, my my show's real successful. I can buy the fuel. No. Even though you have the money, you're not allowed to spend the money. That's discrimination, right? You know, there's no fungibility in it. Uh and that's just the superpower and uh they want that power and they're going to use it for social engineering. And then the worst part is anybody who speaks out against them, they'll try to shut their money off. That's the most powerful way to silence a person. [David] [12:36] So here here are some uh questions that I have. I have a lot. Solana just I want to talk about Solana because you you mentioned how especially with Midnight, you're you're it it's just fun to watch you with no handcuffs on you, just like speak. You know, just like speak. Not that you've never spoken your mind. But like you're you're just like enjoying yourself here and you're communicating with others. Solana just made its network about 80 times faster. And Solana went down. What does Cardano's next speed upgrade, Leo's do that Solana can't? [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [13:18] Well, we're fundamentally different architectures. So what Solana did is they said, let's start with a very centralized, very highly regulated federated, um, set of actors. And then let's gradually decentralize. What we did is we said, let's start with maximal decentralization and let's gradually get faster. So we chose to approach it from different directions. And so when you look at Orboros uh Prous, which was what we launched when Shelly launched years and years ago, we immediately became one of the most decentralized cryptocurrencies, but performance was not really great. And there's kind of like two spectrums. One is throughput. So TPS, how many transactions can you do? And then there's latency, how long does it take for a transaction to settle? So almost immediately, we started asking, okay, now that we're fully decentralized, how do we preserve that 50% Byzantine resistance and so like half the people can be dishonest, and all these nice properties the ledger has, self-healing and bootstrap from Genesis and so forth, like Bitcoin has. But at the same time, massively improved throughput. So we started Leo's agenda and the Paris agenda. So Paris was about fast finality, so settling faster. And Leo's was about maximizing throughput. So what Leo's proved, the paper, was that we're no longer consensus constraint, meaning that it's just a network problem. So how much bandwidth do you want to have? And it's just a philosophical question. You know, should a consensus node have to have a fiber optic internet connection and be 10 gigabits a second or should a consensus node be like, you know, grandma's Wi-Fi? Like what's your your your rate? Because that's your limiting factor now for TPS because what we did is we split up block creation in a way where, you know, it's following best practices that you would see from a Sui or from a Solana. So we wrote the paper, we did the prototyping and simulations, and then we launched what's called the Musashi testnet. And we've been systematically walking through five stages. We're finishing up stage three and we're about to enter stage four. And all throughout November, we'll do that. And the goal is to get it into the network. Now, when it first launches, um, we expect throughput probably to be somewhere between two to eight times faster. It just depends on benchmarking. But that's the beginning and the protocol has a long tail, meaning that you can just keep turning it up and turning it on. Um, and you increase the requirements of the network, meaning the consensus nodes have to have more bandwidth. So really it's now a a governance question of, okay, we have this engine. Do we want to run it at 2,000 RPM or 5,000 RPM or 10,000 RPM, understanding fewer and fewer cars can keep up with that, right? So the throughput side is basically done. Uh we we think we can keep up with the Joneses and things are really good there. And what's actually unique about Cardano is because of extended UTXO, we actually have a two-layer throughput model. So the the core ledger is really fast. It goes from the tens to the hundreds to the thousands of TPS as Leo's revs up, that engine revs up. But then you also have Hydra. And we kept building Hydra on a dap by dap basis and, you know, there in simulation, you can show over a million TPS, but, you know, you can you can even when it's moderately running, it's in the thousands and tens of thousands and that's reserved space. Meaning that's TPS for your app. So you kind of have this like per app scale model and then you have a ledger wide throughput model. Then Paris takes the settlement time down from minutes to seconds. And so you start getting BFT level behavior uh with the ledger. So uh but you keep all the properties. So if shit hits the fan, it regresses back to the uh to the protocol that we launched with, which is self-healing and it's been running for, you know, eight years. So you don't have those consensus stalls, you don't really have liveness stalls. So you have high safety, high liveness, high Byzantine resistance, self-healing, uh, you know, probabilistic finality with domains that create BFT like finality and then really high throughput. Um, so we're real happy with the agenda. You know, if it was a perfect world, I would have loved to have had it a few years ago. Uh, but, youn know, it's nice to see it out and it's and I feel it solves the blockchain trilemma. Uh because you have full decentralization, 50% Byzantine resistance, you have a ton of scalability, you know, with the system and uh you have safety. Um, you know, so uh I feel pretty good about that. Is that the the protocol seems to be um uh what it needs to be. Um, but, you know, nobody cares about TPS anymore. You know, the TPS was kind of like the 2021 thing, right? Everybody, I'm faster, I'm faster. They're all talking about. You know, Sui is fighting Solana. They're the two big fast ones. You have Mysterium and Elpin Glow and uh they're great protocols and they work really well. And I've spent quite a bit of time actually studying Narwhal and Tus and Mysterium and they they're some great ideas there. Um, it's more now the holism of the ecosystem. Like Tron is on older technology, but Tron processed last quarter 2.2 trillion dollars in stable coin transactions. So, you know, do you really need, you know, these insane TPS rates? And also the other thing is how much are you actually going to do on the network anymore? If you take a look at the entire Ethereum road map, like uh EIP uh, you know, uh 8288 or any of these things, they're really starting to say everything should be done offline as a ZK thing. And then, you know, your chain is aggregating proofs. So the industry's kind of moved on um from raw TPS and it says, is it enough for what I want and are the fees low and predictable? And if that's the case, then really what matters is the DeFi ecosystem, what's integrated into it, interoperability with the legacy world, um how do you get RWAs into the system, and also what level of provability does the system have? So what are you processing? Is it just a raw transaction or is it a smart contract or is it a sophisticated ZK system? You know, we're really moving in a different direction now. [David] [19:26] When and I was I'll ask you this question afterwards, but I'm thinking about this. Um, Adam Back starts I don't know what, you know, I don't know how it started, but it seemed like he was taking shots at Ethereum and Vitalik or whatever it was. But he gives you credit. He says, Charles got on the phone or he was on the phone. Um, and I told him that they should go this way, not that way. Does that after all these years, does that make you feel Does that make you feel like, hey, man, like I've been right the entire time and I'm finally along with Cardano's ecosystem because he didn't take a shot at Cardano when when asked. Like, so that means Cardano, right? He didn't take a shot. Usually Adam Back would. He didn't. Does that make you feel good in any way? [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [20:21] So the thing about it is that, you know, I called Adam Back in 2013. I've known Adam and I that was when Ethereum was just getting started. There was no CEO, no nothing. There was probably like less than 20 people on the planet that even knew what Ethereum was. And the original white paper is very primitive. And Adam at that time had just re-entered the cryptocurrency space. You know, he invented proof of work and then he just kind of disappeared for a bit. And so he was coming back in and this was pre-blockstream. And I said, hey, I got to get on the phone with Adam. So I called Adam and the Ethereum people joined and Adam's like, look, if you try to create a shared virtual machine, it's a fool's errand because you're going to have like 10 years of making that work. Why don't you just take UTXO and make UTXO more expressive? And I said, wow, you know, that makes a lot of sense. make UTXO more expressive. And it really then helps crystallize what do we mean by a smart contract. So when Adam became the CEO of Blockstream, even before that, they created a program called Simplicity and Jet, they later created their own side chain called Liquid and they made UTXO more expressive. Uh Russell O'Connor was the big guy there. Um, of course, we on the Cardano side did the same thing. We created extended UTXO, we created Plutus and all this other stuff. Because very rightfully so, he said, well, there's two big advantages we're going to gain. One is scalability because the UTXO stuff that happens locally also happens globally. And so it's much easier to reason about the entire system and shard things and isomorphism with state channels so you can put stuff in Hydra heads and pull it out and just everything just stays the same. We have a shared virtual machine. What happens locally is different than what happens in the network. And so testing is much harder and it's much harder to shard that, which is why Plasma failed as a program. And they never quite got their sharding done with um the EVM. The other thing uh that you get um is you get a much easier path to ZK. Because when you think about it, a UTXO graph, you have inputs and you have outputs. Literally it's the name. Well, those outputs can be proofs. And a proof can be arbitrarily complex. So instead of proving properties of an entire virtual machine, a VM, you just prove a property of a single output. And I shared with Vitalik in the very early days of Ethereum two papers. One was called uh Pinocchio and the other was called Japeto from Microsoft Research and they were written around 2010 or 2012 or something like that. And it was showing in the field of verified compute. So this is like pre-ZK, like early early stuff before we had the ZK revolution. And I said, look, if we do UTXO, we have a real natural path for the UTXO graph to start moving into the layer two and moving into the proof layer and we're going to have a real easy time writing secure programs and, you know, putting strong invariants in and having design by contract and all this other stuff. You're going to have a nightmare if you're building a virtual machine and and I remember very distinctly Adam said, look, we looked at this with the Java virtual machine and the and the CLR at Microsoft for .NET. And it was a nightmare making that damn thing secure. There's all this stuff you have to think about. And that's a virtual machine running on your computer where you have a much more controlled environment. This is a virtual machine in the sky that everybody can see it, everybody can attack it. There's no concept of privacy with it. So Adam was absolutely right and um, you know, for the most part, you got to commend Ethereum for massive improvements and fixing a lot of stuff, but they had to basically go on that 10-year journey that, you know, Adam warned them about and probably 100 billion dollars worth of shit's been hacked as a direct consequence of that design decision. And life could have been a lot easier uh for everybody. The problem with UTXO programming is really, really hard in the beginning to get your DevX right. How do you how do you get concurrency? Uh, you know, how do you share UTXOs and dabs? You know, how do you how do you do data availability? There's just or event sourcing. There's like ton of like non-trivial things for developer experience that either you don't do and they have to figure out on a dap by dap basis or you have to build in a lot of stuff into your system. So it's not sexy. You know, the EVM just makes everything easy, so it's sexy. So they get rapid developer adoption. Uh, but you're adopting developers and you don't necessarily have like doors or beds or you know, other things. It's not really a finished hotel. And uh they have to sleep on the floor and get the bed bugs. So that's real tough stuff, you know. Anyway, we were both right in our own way. I was right on the formal side and he was right on the adoption side. You know, Cardano's at 8 billion and Ethereum's at a quarter trillion. So, you know, it's what Brendan Nick, you know, he told me once, he says, uh the wrong way is the right way. You know, he likes saying that, you know, because he created JavaScript and he's like, we have all these great principled languages like Haskell that are absolutely correct. Uh and JavaScript's wrong, but, you know, who's JavaScript one, right? So, uh there was some brilliance behind what Vitalik said. You know, Adam has some sour grapes too because he could have been the chief scientist of um Ethereum. There was a real window of time there and he would have gained billions of dollars worth of ether and uh had a sexy fun project. Instead, he's like a Bitcoin maxi, he's had to stay there in the Bitcoin space and the sad part about working on Bitcoin is not really a lot you can do. It's like, I give you 11 toys and you're stuck in a room. Like, how many times can you play with those 11 toys before you run out of stuff to do? You know, combinations. There's 11 factorial toy combinations.

[Part 4 of 8] [00:00] Now it's there's not much you can do there. So, uh, you know, he's running out of stuff to do with that and all the cool stuff, you know, like just even basic things like covenants, for example, require op code changes and you can never add them in. You can never change Bitcoin. So, all the stuff that would make Bitcoin really awesome, really hard. And now everything's being pushed into the L2 and into the BitVM model, you know, and we've all massively improved the BitVM model. Uh, but that's just not so satisfying because it it doesn't really super settle on Bitcoin's ledger itself. You're always going somewhere else to do that thing. It's like it's like a wife that never sleeps with you and you have to go somewhere else, you know, it's like, how long can you stay married in in that situation? [00:44] [laughing] [00:45] Welcome to the breakdown episode 810. Uh, we are joined here by Charles Hoskinson talking about things that are relevant. Uh, I'm gonna you said, I'm not accountable for Cardano's adoption. Founders aren't slaves. If not you, who is? [01:06] Well, you know, we had a tripartite structure. No one denies that. Amergo, the CF and input output. I wrote the code and did the science. That was my job. That's what I was paid for. Amergo was supposed to do the VC side, be consensus and the foundation is supposed to be a fucking cryptocurrency foundation, do the governance side. [01:27] Yes. [01:28] So, it's not like these guys were given no money. They were given literally billions of dollars when you sum up all the ADA, literally to do those things. So then people come to me and they say, well, you are the founder, so you must be there to get all the adoption. I say, okay, can you give me the billions of dollars the other guys were given then to go and do that? Well, no, you don't get any of that, but you still should do that. I say, well, cool, there's also an on-chain treasury. Why don't you go use the on-chain treasury and give money for adoption to entities? No, we don't want to do that. Charles, you should do that. And where does it end? You get it to 10 billion. Not not good enough. You get it to 100 billion. Not good enough. You get it to 500 billion. Not good enough. Look at the Ethereum ecosystem. There are people brutally attacking Vitalik. He's not doing enough for adoption. They have 140 billion dollars of stable coins. They have, well, I don't know how much DeFi, 100 billion in DeFi, trillions of dollars worth of transactions. They're a quarter trillion dollars in value, but Vitalik is not doing enough because the person bought at 250 wants it to get to 500. You know, and that's the problem. And no matter what you do, where you get off the boat, million users, 10 million users, 100 million, there's always a new person. And the new person says, you're responsible for pumping my bags. And after 11 years of of being around here, just grow the fuck up. You have an on-chain treasury, you have an on-chain voting system. Do it yourself or hire somebody with the on-chain treasury and the on-chain voting system to go and get adoption for the blockchain, to go and get growth for the blockchain. I'm not going to do it. Okay, because first, I don't have the power to do it. I don't own the trademark and I can't speak on behalf of Cardano. So they're putting me in this impossible situation. We're not going to fund you. We're not going to give you the power, but we'll blame you when it doesn't happen. Okay, so David, I'm going to make you the CEO, but you don't actually get to make any decisions and when the company starts failing, you take the blame. So why would you take that job? It's the worst job in the world. So, so if they do give me the power, is it decentralized? No. [03:43] No. [03:44] And and so you have to use the on-chain governance system to have that conversation. They have to come together and talk about it. Um, and yes, you know, hold Amergo accountable. Yes, hold the CF accountable. Amergo ran away. So then there's the CF. We'll hold them accountable. Their entire vision is enterprise. And they have no clue what enterprises actually want. You know, we do with Midnight and we're kicking ass there. My God, every meeting's awesome, but they have no idea. They're stuck in like a 2018 business model and they haven't really woken up. And they've completely ignored DeFi. So then the community came in, they funded Alpha Growth and they funded Draper and uh, you know, they're great people at Alpha Growth and Draper. I just met with Andy Tan when I was in Singapore and he's a legendary guy. He's got a deck of cards and everyone's a unicorn that he invested in. He's a very good investor. Uh, Tesla early, PayPal early, all he's just been around forever. Uh, and, you know, Alpha Growth, great DeFi guys. They give them money. They're going to go start doing the job and getting adoption. So go talk to those guys and get them going. Um, you know, my experience as a builder on Cardano, uh, Cardano doesn't treat its builders very well. I'll give you an example. So we were at Token 2049, the official Cardano booth, Midnight had no representation. We're the only Cardano project listed on Binance and we're the largest Cardano project and I'd argue the sexiest one. We're bringing a lot of people in and the only one connecting Cardano to the rest of the industry, but we had no representation at the booth. But the people who hate our guts and say I'm a cancer for the ecosystem, Iagon did have representation at the booth and got thanked for a deal they didn't do. That's because of the foundation and how they approach marketing and their their distaste for me and my mutual distaste for them. So, you know, if you tell your builders you're not welcome and you tell your builders we're not going to fund you and by adopting the thing, you get VC stigma, uh, and they say, oh, we can't touch it because you're Cardano. Um, you can't really expect that the ecosystem is going to grow. So the other thing that they need to do is they they need to hold the foundation accountable. The board should be community elected. It's not. It's self-appointed and for more than four years, the same members have been on who have no connection to our ecosystem and there's no way to replace them. They replace themselves. And the CEO has launched or is part of a new private venture called Veridian. So they they created it with foundation money, then they spun it out as a for-profit entity and I guess he's on the board now of it. I wonder if he has equity. Go figure. You know, so and so every interview he talks about is about Veridian and how great Veridian is. Okay. You know, so so there's no accountability structure there because if you had a community elected board, it would resolve itself. The new board would come in and say, you're responsible for Cardano adoption. We want you to grow these set of KPIs by this much, this time. How are you going to do it? And they'll have a strategy, right? And if they don't execute strategy, you know what the board does, they fire the CEO. And a new CEO comes in. We call that governance. If the board can't be fired, the board is not connected to the outcomes of the ecosystem and feels no accountability to it and they can select their own agenda, then that organization has no legitimacy. That is one of the biggest barriers right now for adoption in uh the Cardano ecosystem. It just it just is what it is. And you know what? I don't care anymore. I just don't. I can't solve the problem. I've said my peace for two plus years about it. I've told the community directly what the fundamental issues are. I can solve any technological problem. I'm writing a revolutionary state-of-the-art language for Cardano right now that's never been seen before, that's going to bring new features and functionality to it. Um, I've designed Ouroboros Leos and it solves the blockchain trilemma. I built the partner chains framework and created the first partner chain, Midnight, and I'm connecting it to the entire cryptocurrency space and it's a true fourth generation cryptocurrency and a lot of people are super excited and there's a lot of hype behind it. I'm doing marketing myself. Those videos recently, the Coinlings and the uh, and the Tron video, I I created it myself. I do a lot of stuff. Okay, I can't solve the governance problem of Cardano. It's unsolvable until the community aggregates together and makes a decision. And if they want to blame me and say I'm a bad guy, that's fine. Guess what? Don't pump your bags. Don't grow Cardano. It certainly doesn't make the ecosystem more appealing. If you see a big bar fight, do you go into the bar? No. You know, so so it's not going to get any adoption now, is it? And you're going to lose your best people because they're just going to get fatigued and they're going to go somewhere else. We just had one of our major SPOs and ambassadors leave to Sui. You know, I'd known the guy for a long time and I just saw, I said, well, thanks for being here and I understand. I really do. This is me the adult talking to other people as adults, you know, and uh, I'm just so tired and exhausted and fatigued of the tribalism and fatigued of the same conversation again and again and again. Uh, and so, you know, people can say whatever they want to say. People can do whatever they want to do. But my advice to you as a person who's been in the industry for 15 years and seen the successful projects and the not successful projects, if you don't have accountability and good governance and you don't hold people accountable, you will never solve the problem. It'll only get worse and worse until you run out of money and it collapses and then it's the Spider-Man meme of everybody pointing at each other for who's responsible uh for that collapse. And I'm telling you up front, if you keep going down this road, it's not going to have a good outcome. So, you know, we're a builder, we're building. They say, oh, you should do commercial adoption. Well, we have Pogen, we have RealFi, we have Midnight. What the hell are these things? Midnight City. They're being built in the Cardano orbit, bringing people into the chain. I've moved on from an infrastructure guy to an application guy, a venture guy, a product guy, and I'm building products. And if the products are successful, they bring TVL in. If the products are successful, they bring people in. I try to go to the Cardano ecosystem and say, you guys want some mutual ownership in this? They rejected the treasury funding for it. So they tell me to bring people in. I go and build ventures to do that, but then they don't want to fund the ventures. You know, and if this is how you treat the founder, how will an average Cardano person who doesn't have the resources and pull of the founder be treated? It's not a happy ecosystem at the moment to build on. That's just a fact. And I'm sorry. [03:37] Does it hurt? Does it hurt you when like somebody like uh, like that tells you that they're leaving to Sui? And you're like, man. [03:45] It it used to, you know, I used to really bother me. I'd call them and say, hey, you know, we got to rally and everything. But now I fully understand where where they're coming from, how they feel, what's going on. Because there's only so long in a marriage you can be in that marriage and keep getting hammered again and again before you say, look, I can't be in this marriage anymore. And it's a two-way relationship, right? Cardano has to give something to its community and its builders. And it has to have vision and hope and all these other things. And yes, we were absolutely right foundationally on technology. We were right about the consensus layer, we were right about the accounting layer. Awesome. Right in technology is an 18 month to 36 month window. Then everybody else has it. The iPhone comes out. Steve Jobs is right. You notice there's a lot of phones that look like the iPhone? You know, look at Xiaomi, my God. Um, you know, Open AI is right about Chat GPT. You notice there's a lot of large language models now? Okay. So you're right for a window of time and and that's awesome. But if you don't move fast enough, you die. That's the nature of technology. So Cardano was right in the third generation. And had we moved faster on execution and we had a commercial arm and a proper governance arm, uh, we would have absolutely dominated like Solana did. So we lost that generation. So I'm focused on the next generation now, the fourth generation because everything is reset and everybody's moving in this direction. And if you look at everything Vitalik is doing, ZK, ZK, ZK, ZK. If you look at everything the A16Zs and other investors are doing, ZK, ZK, ZK, ZK. And what do they think? Abstraction, smart compliance to bring RWAs in, the Web 2.5 revolution and adding identity into the blockchain space and AI agents. That's where the space is at. It's not on settlement time, it's not on TPS, it's not on decentralization. Those are considered to either be solved problems or no longer relevant problems for where the the hype cycle is at. So, Cardano has an opportunity to fully embrace Midnight. That's its future. Stuff like Midnight. Or it can choose to view it as an alien bad thing. And I tell you, it's really demoralizing to the Midnight ambassadors, the Night Force, all the people, when we have to have a side event and we can't have the Midnight event at the Cardano booth. And we're not treated like a Cardano project when it's the largest project on Cardano. And it's carrying Cardano into the future. That's a direct decision that the foundation made. And they said, well, you had to apply. We have to apply. It's it's so you can say no? Or treat us like we're a two-person DAP when it's a hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent and it's a massive ecosystem and there's already hundreds of thousands of people in it. Are you kidding me? There was no one at Token 2049. No one talking about Cardano talking points. There were a lot of people talking about Midnight talking points. Literally every presentation. Also, we had 20 people dressed up as agents with television screens on, you know, showing real-time Midnight City. And they were commissioned and paid for by agents from Midnight City. And everybody's like, what's this Midnight City? What's this thing? Well, like what's this Midnight thing? This is exciting. Everybody's talking about Midnight. T.G. Miller came to one of our programs. Remember Silicon Valley? He's like, hey, guys, I like Midnight. This is cool. And what are you guys doing? There's hype there, right? So, if you're an ecosystem, you know, the contrast, I went to the Solana event while I was there and I ran into Lily and, you know, saw all the Solana people. They're like, these are our builders. We love our builders. And we're so happy about this one. And we're so happy about this one. And how can we help? How can we help? That's what a real ecosystem does. And that's what a real governing foundation does. They want to fund their builders, they want to be part of their builders, they want to embrace those people and bring them in. It's shameful the conduct that uh that our foundation has. Uh and that's they're not a I don't want to scapegoat them and say it's the only problem. The community also needs to grow up. They have to get rid of the maximalism and they have to think clearly and have to say, do we want to survive, thrive and grow? I'm not saying we're dead. I know people love to chop these things up and, you know, misinterpret my words. You know, there's you can fix anything. Apple was 120 days away from bankruptcy. Now it's a five trillion dollar company or whatever, right? You can fix anything in technology because that's the power of technology. You can move really quickly, really rapidly. But you have to have the right leadership, you have to have the right philosophy, and you have to have the right reasons behind that, the right vision and mission. And if you don't, you can't fix it. So Cardano has to take a step back and say, is the leadership that we have appropriate? Do we still believe in the mission, vision and values? And do we still have the right strategy for these things? And if you make those adjustments using the on-chain governance, you can change everything. If you decide that everything's perfect or Charles Hoskinson's the evil guy and evil IO and only if we get rid of IO, then everything's going to be better, which some people in the ecosystem, they're a minority, but some people in the ecosystem are saying, well, great. All I ask then is provide an alternative strategy. You got rid of Charles. Congratulations. So what happens the morning after? How do you lead? This was like when Trump came, oh, Biden is so horrible. Okay, so what's your philosophy? What are you going to do? What are you going to do different? Okay, step by step, walk me through this whole thing because you made a lot of promises and commitments and you say how brilliant you are and how talented you are, but you can't just say it. You have to have a strategy and you have to have a vision. You have to know how to make that work within this ecosystem. And I'll tell you, anybody who's trying to build a walled garden is dying. It's why Canton's going to fail and others going to fail. You have to be an open ecosystem and work with people, even people you don't like. And even people you historically haven't gotten along with. And you have to integrate with everybody and be neutral because liquidity wants to flow. This is the age of abstraction. The user shouldn't have to care about the wallet address. The user shouldn't have to care about the wallet. The user shouldn't have to care about the blockchain that it settles on. The user shouldn't have to care about the asset. It's just Charles at Midnight. That's it. And that's what it needs to be or Charles at Ethereum or Charles at Near, right? And it just works, just like email works. Whoever solves that gets all the users and owns all those users. So blockchains that are wiring themselves to solve and resolve, uh, will win. And the blockchains that aren't will die. It's just that simple. So people got to make a decision. I know what I need to do for Midnight. And every fucking day I wake up, I have more than 10,000 commits, I think, my own personal repos this year. I'm writing code 24 hours a day, seven days a week. You know, my engineers, I've 10x all of them. You know, five guys can do the work of 50 people right now. And some of the innovations we have coming out are are just unbelievable. And and that's because of AI. You know, AI, if I go into a topic, I can download 2,000 research papers and 5,000 repos, graph it all into one giant knowledge graph and I have a god brain about that particular topic and it can design anything I ask it to do. I look at roll-up architectures. There's 84 best practices based on 10 years of history, uh, and thousands of hacks that have happened. It would have taken nine months to build that list if a human being was doing it. But AI can do it. Oh, but AI hallucinates. Great. But the preponderance of an audit set of 12 agents composed of Gemini, Muse, Chat GPT and Claude with the appropriate application of tools, I assure you does not hallucinate. And if you do that preponderance enough, you can recursively self-approve your way into a verified structure, especially when you blend it with fuzzing, lean and Quint. You know, you just got to know how to use the tools. Okay, so if you zero prompt it, of course, it's going to be retarded. Guess what? You can you can fix that and uh these tools are godlike. So use them, you know, and that's what we're doing with Midnight. We're leaning super heavy into it and keeping the gigabrain PhDs, but now we have gigabrain PhDs with terabrain, you know, hyperbrain AI. And so it's life is good for us. [19:36] Stay tuned because we'll be right back right after this commercial break from Midnight to talk more about Midnight. [19:45] What first got you excited about blockchains? Think about it. Oh wait. I bet it wasn't multi-million dollar hacks, exposed data, or finding somewhere safe to store your seed phrase. Was it? Maybe it was the idea of decentralizing a broken financial system. Maybe it was imagining a world where people own their own data and get to sharing the value it creates. Or maybe it was the promise of a fundamentally better way of connecting, communicating, and transacting. The next phase of the internet that empowers us instead of exploiting us. So why hasn't it happened yet? Where we're still living with the same broken system that blockchains promised to fix. It's because blockchains can't keep a secret. Enabling open transparent systems was only the first half of the challenge. For blockchains to really change the world, they also have to be able to protect our sensitive data when it matters. And that's why we've built Midnight to bring down the final barrier to mass adoption and unlock the full potential of the decentralized web. Let's build the internet we deserve. Together. [21:06] Ladies and gentlemen. [21:08] Welcome back to the show. Sponsored by Midnight. Let's talk about Midnight. Thought I was on mute by the way. Justin Sun and Tron are bringing Midnight's privacy tech to their payments. Is that good news for compliance or is it a regulator's nightmare? [21:30] Well, you know, every chain's different, right? Um, we love Justin. He's great. Yeah. Uh, and uh, when I created that little Tron commercial, I said, you know, I I want to be nice to the Tron community. Like let's talk about what they've actually achieved. And uh, you can see like at the beginning how it started with this very small graph and it showed the growth of Tron and all the major accomplishments. I even had the eight-bit Justin Sun floating in space. And they say, okay, well, what's night mode? Okay, night mode, you know, I really wanted to visualize it. You got a wallet on your phone. Click. Just like a VPN, right? Express VPN, Nord VPN, Proton, whatever. What do you do to turn on a VPN? And what happens with a VPN? You go from your internet connection to the server and then that server goes to the internet on your behalf. So from the internet's perspective, it's that server and it doesn't show you. So a VPN of DeFi means it's the Midnight network, it's not you. It's pretty powerful, right? It's a basic concept that we need. And they said, well, does that mean I have to leave Tron? Well, not really. You can go Tron, Midnight, Tron. So from Tron's perspective, it's Midnight, but you're still on Tron actually. And, you know, there's 2.2 trillion last quarter of stable coin transactions. That's that's big team money, man. You know, we used to be B people. Now we're T people. Got the big T. You know, Mr. T. I pity the fool that don't have those transactions. It's big. [22:57] You know what it is? It's almost like no like, you know, they have so much you just you just said it. So much money on that chain flows there. Nobody really talks about it. It's like really, it's like nobody talks about it. Uh, and and to see the announcement or or, you know, of them, you know, uh, using Midnight's tech, that's pretty cool. And I and you just mentioned before about Solana and how Solana is always encouraging their builders, what do you need help with? This that and a third. Midnight has allowed you to really get out there and really talk to all these real protocols, I want to put them. These protocols that are not just in Web 3, but they're outside of that bubble. And what's that been like though? [23:48] Yeah, so, you know, when you take a step back and you you look at all these ecosystems, you know, Solana and anybody else, they've peaked in terms of retail adoption and they've peaked in terms of retail trading. And, you know, they've they've won, but then it's like the dog that catches the bumper on the car. It's like, what do I do now? You know, I've keep chasing this fucking car. I finally caught the car. So when you have trillions of dollars and hundreds of millions of people and people are like, why is the revolution not here? Well, you told us that we need to get our money in, we need to adopt these things. These things need to grow. Now they're there. So now what's happening is the adulting of the industry. And we're talking about how does this industry go from wallets and addresses and cryptocurrencies to it just works on your phone like everything else does. It's an app like everything else. Fingerprint, pin code, that's it. That's that's what we're trying to do as an industry. So when you look at a lot of the moves that Solana has been making in particular, they have been less about let's be better, faster, cheaper because they've kind of won that fight in many lenses and and now it's more about liquid consumerization, mass consumerization. So they're wiring themselves into credit cards and Western Union and this and this and this and this. They're wiring into consumer experiences and they're wiring into larger consumer platforms and they're trying to get down to that minimum divisor of just it works on a phone. So if that's the path of least resistance, what you need to do is get on that trend and say, okay, how do we get Midnight to be a cell phone app on your phone or connected to one of the cell phone apps that you already have. And then how do we get the user experience to be a fingerprint and the phone takes care of the rest? You know, that's basically it because the consumer to turn it on, I push a button, it recognizes me, no password, no nothing. And to install something, I click a button, install and it installs and we're done. That's the consumer's experience. So you have to get into that window. And then once you're there, you have to say, okay, who cares? You care and what values and principles do you want to have? The point of Midnight is it reinforces those values and principles. So it allows you to be private and self-sovereign and non-custodial and these types of things because those are really important. That's what the cryptocurrency industry is about, putting some sort of checks and balances and control.

[Part 5 of 8] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [00:00] on powerful people. But then, if you're going to be using somebody's business, if you're going to be using somebody's accounts, they should have a say in it too. I'm sorry, I I don't get to tell Microsoft what to do. I don't get to tell PayPal what to do. This is a partnership. It's not me broadcasting that. It's chaos otherwise, right? But the point is we're on even terms and we can negotiate that out. If the software is great, very fluid to do all that. There's no resistance with that for how you handle disclosure and taxes and EULAs and these types of things and the consumer has a little bit more say. So that's where the industry's at right now is remove the friction, add in the regulatory layer, add in the identity layer and get it to work everywhere. Abstraction. It has to work for everyone everywhere. So, what's nice is that these platforms, they took a position and maybe they regret it, but they can't dial it back, are open ecosystems. So they can't stop you from integrating. They really can't. Okay? Um, this is why I got so irritated with Chainlink when they say, oh, it's like $70 million to integrate with us. Why should I have to pay to integrate with an open ecosystem? I should just write my own code and it plugs in and connects into your system, right? I don't understand that. Uh, I would have done the Chainlink integration myself, um, if, uh, if it was an open ecosystem. The fact I have to pay to be part of that ecosystem, that's not a cryptocurrency. That's not an open ecosystem. I'm sorry, it's not. I understand there's bag holders and they have the token and they they want to go and fight for these things, but that's a big philosophical divide. I don't have to call up Anatoly or Justin Sun or anybody else to integrate with their networks. Okay? Now, they can endorse it, they can get excited about it. We can partner and work together on stuff, but that's beside the point. The first step is, is it open or closed? And if it's open, anybody can build against it, connect to it and work with it. Most of the cryptocurrency space is open by design. Because it's open, the real value is going to be whoever gets the best user experience in linking all of it together, putting all the pieces together and then making it safe. Okay, good experience combined with safety, meaning you don't lose your money. You know, 15 years in, it's still the same complaint. You know, it's amazing to me. Nothing has changed. You go and survey people, like over 70%, number one demands, like, uh, Family Feud, survey says, All right, number one, safety. I'm going to fuck it up. Somebody else is going to fuck it up. I I'm going to lose my money. I'm going to get going to get hacked. And we have done nothing as an industry to askew that. Most recently, look at Ledger. And then before that, the other hardware wallets. So you're told like, buy a Ledger because that's safe. And then there's like supply chain interdiction and secret ninjas and these things. It's like, how is grandma or any normal sane human being going to get into this industry? They're like, okay, it's the future. You own it. You're in control of it. By the way, put your life savings into it. Oh, and if you lose the money, it's your fault. You're a fucking retard and you and you never get any of it back and cyber criminals have it forever. Like, why would I want to be part of this system? This is crazy. The legacy system if somebody hacks my bank account, maybe they give me my money back. At least I can have like a lawsuit or have a conversation about it. Here, it's like you're just done. That's the number one consumer concern is safety. Yeah. So what does that mean? It means that we have to not go from manage custody to non-custodial. There needs to be some sort of third option where you can embed covenants and control structures and intention into your wallet. So people can't steal it even if they get access to the keys because there's a restrictive policy there for it. Um, and user has to be part of that. AI also has to be part of that to help help sort this out. And if it sees anomalous behavior, prevent that from occurring. You know, most people don't just liquidate their entire bank account. They just show up and say, hey, I know I have $300,000 there. I just want to withdraw all of it to a cash in the middle of the night. Most people don't do that. So if you do it, not that you can't do it, it's just maybe there should be some additional verification steps before that occurs. Because nine times out of ten, it's probably a fraudulent transaction instead of a normal transaction. Banks understand this. Cryptocurrency space, they treat this like it's the devil. It's like, no, the whole reason the smart contract exists is exactly for that reason. So you can add safety into the user experience and make it seamless and then, uh, people don't lose their money. So that's really where, you know, I'm focused is that wiring of things together, adding intelligence to those things, adding safety to those things, getting it to work on a phone. It's really the raison d'etre of Midnight. And then there are certain principles that have to be observed and protected because you can't trust the government, can't trust the vampire, like the privacy component. I'm sorry, they've lost the right to be trusted. We can't trust them. So we have to have some agency and control over these things. Otherwise, what's going to happen is we have the worst financial system in the world where everything you've ever done forever is remembered to be weaponized by a future administration. I mean, our US government's gotten so bad, it's basically like tribes and the minute the other tribe gets in power, they want to put you in prison. You see this with Elon Musk. Yeah, they just said it. The Democrats are like, well, Elon should be in prison. And when we get back in power, we're going to investigate him. So then he says, well, if you do that, I'm going to go after you. And then they say, how dare Elon Musk threaten a congresswoman? How dare Elon Musk? They just said they're going to put him in prison. For what? Building big businesses and making America great? Fucking making a car fly and, you know, running our space program and and and like like putting satellites in space that give us internet connection in the Amazon. I mean, really? You're going to put this guy for why? Because he's a billionaire. [David] [06:02] Saving our astronauts when they were stuck. [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [06:04] Yes. [David] [06:05] Right? International Space Station. [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [06:07] Yes. Who is it? SpaceX, right? [David] [06:08] SpaceX, right? [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [06:10] And so so basically you have to pick a political side and even if you disagree with the political side, you have to stay in that tribe because it protects you from the other evil tribe that because you're part of that tribe. It's like prison gangs, right? You know, once you're in prison, you got to join that gang and you know, you have to do good do the prison gang stuff. This is what our politics have devolved into. So why would you trust these people? What they'll do is just go through your transaction history and say we're just going to retroactively make something that you've done illegal and throw you in prison for it. And, you know, the blockchain is now the world's best accountant to reveal that. That's insanity. You can't do that stuff. You just can't. So, yeah, we got to have privacy with that. So you need safety and security and simplicity, but you also need privacy with that. And it has to be universal. It has to work everywhere. [David] [06:58] Do you think that was forgotten about? Do you think we've only recently, I guess as an ecosystem, I'm not saying you, but as a ecosystem realized, wait, hold on. My shit's not so private. And now this goes for crypto. This goes for the chain, and this also now goes for AI. Like you're typing, you're having conversations with Claude, you're having conversations with ChatGPT, Grok. Your information is out there. Like they can say that they they they've they have your, you know, they secured your data and nobody will be able to see it. Bullshit because, you know what? 325 million people's data was leaked onto the black market from Equifax. You had 23 and Me that was selling data. Okay, so you can't tell me, trust me, bro. Okay? That's not happening. And then and I think a lot of people are now pivoting towards or trying to research the privacy aspect of it. And they want to get into things like Midnight and they talk about the Zcash, which my argument, maybe you can make a better one. My argument is that I think Midnight is a better Zcash. And I get pushback on that when I'm on spaces or when I'm obviously doing the show. I'm like, I think you've taken whatever they had. I I guess there's a lot of components that you guys share, but I think you've taken it to the next level. And I've broken that down. [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [08:28] Well, they don't have smart contracts. Yeah, I so so you can't program a transaction. We can. It's like Bitcoin to Ethereum. I I mean, it's undebatable. Yes, we have Halo 2, but there's so much more complexity in our system with Kachina. So we we have a programming language with it. Um, and we took the best of both worlds. We learned a lot. The Zcash project is great. There's nothing wrong with it. Just like there's nothing wrong with Bitcoin as a project if you treat it as digital gold. It's just important to understand that they don't have programming yet. The programmability isn't there yet. Uh, we do. Uh, and also above and beyond that, we have a much faster path to post quantum than they do. And when we get there, we will have the full ZKVM stack and, you know, all these regulatory things that we've constructed and identity system we've constructed in. So you can do both regulated and unregulated commerce on the same rail. Um, you know, and then they go they just freak out and their brains explode and they say, oh, well, that must mean there's escrow keys and the consensus nodes can see everything. No, go fuck yourself. It doesn't mean that. Consensus nodes can't see anything. It's private like you guys, okay? It but what happens at the smart contract level is the business of the people participating in the smart. That's the fight club. What happens in fight club is fight club. Don't talk about it, okay? The consensus level can't see anything. That's the way it should be built. Um, and it's hard for them to get there, you know, because they they they bag hold, they own this stuff. They're they're there and, uh, we see a lot of that and people get immediately threatened. But, you know, the thing is, we can add a DeFi layer to Zcash. Zcash can't add a DeFi layer to Midnight. Thus, Midnight is a superset of Zcash. It's not a subset. So, yes, it's absolutely a better Zcash, uh, from that perspective. And again, I'm not criticizing the Zcash team. I like them a lot. They're good people. Um, they do good things. I always have to put these disclaimers in now because people chop stuff up and they get just irrationally angry. But I, you know, it's it's just apples to oranges. We do different things. They launched many years ago. Um, you know, they were pioneers in the ZK space and, you know, they operate on a fundamentally different paradigm than we operate on. You know, they're an L1. We're a metachain. We we live above all the other chains. And the point is cross-chain coordination so that you can get be a DPN, uh, a VPN of DeFi. Nobody's going to Zcash from Bitcoin or other places to go do DeFi on Tron or Ethereum, whereas they can do that with Midnight. That's what we're trying to do. And that's what which means we can be friends to everybody. [David] [11:02] You said something which really hits. People are tired of jumping from chain to chain. Just having one address is what people really do want. It is really like we want it as simple as we have it in the Web2 world. [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [11:17] Yes. [David] [11:17] Where it's just like, here you go. Like, you know, we don't care what bank it came from. As long as it hit my bank account. [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [11:24] Yeah. [David] [11:25] That that's what people want. They don't want you to tell how you built, what code you use, what coding language. Nobody cares about. Like the regular retail, the regular retail person, they come in here for two reasons, Charles. One, hump my bag. This is my friend. He made millions of dollars, so I want the same thing and I'm smarter than him. And then if they make gains here and they stay here, they stay here for the tech, but they also want it to be easy. I think we've made things easier in our space. If you look, you know, five, six years ago till now, I think a lot of things are are much more easier for the regular retail buyer, but there are still things that are complicated and a lot of devs love to go ahead and explain what it was built on. Great at at a programming conference. Go ahead and kill it. Talk solidity and talk whatever you want, whatever language you want to talk in. Go for it. Python, like great. You think the average person coming into crypto knows anything that they don't even know visual basics. [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [12:30] You know, the thing about it is that it's not about the language, it's about the provability. Okay, you make an assertion and how do I know what you're saying is right? I don't care if your assertion is wrapped in Bitcoin script or solidity or compact or Akin, it doesn't really matter to me. What I care about is David said he had 100 foo coin and he's trying to send it to Bill at this address. Does that address exist? Does David have the right to spend that against the spending logic? Um, you know, do those coins exist? Have they been double spent? So I need to take your assertion and I need a proof that you're allowed to do what you've claimed and also the address receiving it is allowed to receive that. That's the more meaningful and important part. So he who controls the proofs controls the universe. It's the Arrakis of the cryptocurrency space, you know, this like going back to Dune because Dune's coming out, right? You know, it's like the spice, you know, the proof is the spice. It's not the transaction. So everybody's so caught up on how many of these transactions per second I can do. Well, you're the settlement layer. But what about the application, the permissions and the solvers? You know, there's three other pieces you're missing in abstraction and settlement is just one of the four. And so great, you can settle there and you guys get a fee, but the guy who makes the proof is going to get a fee too. And the guy making the proof is going to make many, many more proofs than you're going to have settlement because they do proofs for everybody. And the fees are going to be much, much higher because it's a lot more compute. Um, and by the way, those proofs work everywhere. And those proofs are the only way to fulfill Satoshi's vision. What Satoshi believed in is this concept of inclusive accountability. And so basically the idea is you can check it on your infrastructure. That's why everything was a full node in the beginning. There was no concept of a server client model. Everybody was a server. So you had a Bitcoin full node, I had a Bitcoin full node. I send you a transaction. You don't trust me. You check that against your record. So you can verify it's not double spent and the coins exist. Well, how do you have inclusive accountability in a world of 18,000 blockchains? Are you going to install 18,000 full nodes on your computer and anytime you get something and, you know, you check it? No. So what are you going to do? You're going to have a transaction and the transaction can carry its own proof of correctness. It's called PCD, proof carrying data. All right, well, so we're in the proof business with Midnight. And Starkware is in the proof business and ZK Sync is in the proof business and Ethereum is starting to enter the proof business. You know, so all these big people are moving on into the proof business. Even Bitcoin now is in the proof business with BitVM. That's what adds intelligence to Bitcoin is the BitVM layer and it's really expensive, but it's still there. So the proof is what matters, you know, for everybody. I and I say that that's a big deal. And what's really cool about the proof is the proof doesn't just take transactions, it can take foreign assets like identity. And you can prove properties of Dave Gokhshtein without revealing it's Dave. They say, well, Dave is an American citizen. You know, the person I'm dealing with is American. The person I'm dealing with is American in New York. The person I'm dealing with is American in New York, high net worth. You know, you can do that stuff, right? I haven't revealed Dave Gokhshtein. I just made those things. So you're eligible to buy this Reg D exempt security token. Okay, and you buy it on Uniswap. Boom. Now, so selective disclosure, escalating selective disclosure to meet suitability guidelines of asset, it's the next big thing. And once you do it, then $10 trillion of assets enter the cryptocurrency space. Also, it allows us to do insurance. You know, people say, well, how do we solve this wallet hack problem? And how do we solve this bridge hack problem? It's like, yes, technology is certainly important and cryptography is certainly important, but, you know, no matter how many sprinklers you put in and how good of a job you do, every now and then your house burns down. Okay? So what do you buy? Buy fire insurance. So when your house burns down, you don't lose everything. You can get your money back. So wouldn't it be nice to buy wallet insurance? So if your wallet gets hacked, it's there. Well, how do you buy a blockchain-based decentralized wallet insurance? How do I I have to have a policy, a premium. And I have to know you. I have to pay you, right? So there's some identity component there and there has to be some stuff figured out with the whole thing. So, you know, if you have proof layer, you can do that and keep privacy at the same time. So I was just in Bermuda and I was talking to all the Bermuda insurance people and they're like, yeah, this makes sense. And I as a blockchain builder get very excited about it because these are some of the highest yield assets you can create on a chain. Collateralized insurance pool, you know, if you tranche it, you can make 30 to 50% every year. You know, that's pretty good. I'd like some some of those assets on my chain and people go just pool their Bitcoin as collateral for wallet insurance. And then as a wallet builder, it makes me excited because it creates standards. You think the insurance companies only going to insure every wallet? No, they're going to say it has to meet some sort of set of security standards and safety standards. Just like I'm not going to insure your warehouse unless you have fire sprinklers. Right? You know, insurance creates quality and standards and accountability inside a system. So if we had it in the blockchain space, massive improvement on the consumer experience and the safety for everybody. How do you get it in the blockchain space? Proofs. Proofs. Once you have proofs, you're good. [David] [17:54] You know, we talked about this, uh, the last time you were on the show. We talked about AI. You made a statement which was which was pretty dope. You said we took crypto away from the centralized world, we made it ours. It's time for us to do the same thing with AI. I'm you know, and we talked about how, you know, obviously it's centralized and only three or four parties own it. Um, and our information's out there. A lot of people that I I do speak to, and I I speak to a lot of people every single day. People are are number one, they're intrigued by AI, but they're also worried about AI. And, uh, and it looks like to me, from my at least I I've been here on this planet for a very long time. I've never seen a besides maybe crypto, I've never seen an industry move so fast in my life. Like the updates on these models, they're faster, they think faster, they they can do more things. Now you have Grok bots that are out there. I'm sure Claude's coming out with its duets, like is just incredible, but there's also a downside to this technology because in the wrong hands, your privacy is absolutely cooked. That that that's the way I look at it. There is no privacy. Right. Where does Midnight come into this into this entire landscape now? Because we need privacy. I also talked about this with Filecoin's, uh, president. She was on. Marta was on. [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [19:21] Oh, she's great. She's great. [David] [19:22] Awesome. I got to tell you, the energy, oh my God. Uh, she's great and she's like, we have a solution, right? Because at some point, you're going to need storage, right? You're going to need storage at some point and they're getting to the point where they might be bottlenecking themselves. So it's not all just about data centers, it's also about, you know, the storage, uh, aspect. And I also wanted to ask you about that. Are you guys, you know, going to, you know, Filecoin, Midnight or Cardano, are you guys going to kind of link? [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] [19:50] Oh, yeah, you know, we have a great relationship with both Filecoin and Celestia and a lot of the things that we do, we want to use Celestia as a DA layer and a lot of the archival storage, we want to use Filecoin. Because, you know, at the end of the day, you got to know where you're at, you know, we have night frames for agents, so we're in the agentic, um, uh, you know, we're in the blockchain agent space. We live there. Um, we want to do private payments, private DeFi, be the DeFi, uh, layer for privacy. But that means that there's a lot of data overhead, both on the availability and storage side. And I don't want to go build a Filecoin or a Celestia. Why? They're great services, they're cheap, they're easy to use, wonderful people. And this is how blockchain should be. Blockchain to blockchain deals, right? They work together. You know, layer one itis is where you build everything yourself. And I was like, guys, okay, do you make your own computer processors? Do you go out to the beach and grab some fucking sand? You know, like what are we doing here? You obviously have an ecosystem of independent companies, independent technologies that come together to enable your computing experience. Well, analogously, you should have a collection of blockchains come together to enable your blockchain experience to be as optimal as possible. Uh, and I love Filecoin. I I just think that they've been around for a long time. They're good people, they're easy to work with and, uh, they're one of several, uh, core partners that we think are part of the story of how Midnight is going to evolve. Uh, but more broadly, you know, once you solve, there there's some foundational things you have to solve. One is, you have to figure out a way to to write your intention down. So what does Dave actually want to do? So let's say you're a merchant and you accept lots of cryptocurrencies as an e-commerce merchant. So you got a little of this coin, a lot of that coin, that coin, but you're not a currency speculator because you have margins. So what? You want to liquidate those to stable coin like Circle or something like that. Okay. Are you going to go and in your underwear at 2:30 in the morning, like as soon as you get a trade, you know, go to Uniswap and pancake and all these other things and figure out how to sell that and get the best possible. No, you're going to have a trading bot, trading agent. And your intention is liquidate this to Circle at best possible price. And here are my margins. So don't liquidate if it goes exceeds this or that or the fees exceed this or that. That's an intent. So then the intent is persistent. It's good till canceled and it's running and it's cross-chain. Because you don't know if the best deal is going to be on Solana or the best deal is on Binance's exchange or Base or wherever it's at, right? So it's going to be a cross-chain understanding, a cross- abstract intention. So it's going to run, it's going to do that and, uh, so how do I write it in an unambiguous way where your intent can't be misinterpreted and the agent can't hallucinate? Well, that's a closed circuit communication. The agent trading has to create a proof that its execution meets your intention. So the language has to be provable from that perspective. So that's one dimension of it. Then the other dimension of it is, how do you then embed that into contracts, addresses, transactions on other blockchains? So if I go to Bitcoin or I go to Ethereum or Solana, instead of just everything only working when it's within my system, how do I make it work on other people's systems? And there are that's why smart contracts and ZK exist. They give you the ability to do that. And then if you can create a management layer for this stuff, it's super consumer friendly. Then, no matter where you're at, the blockchains actually carry your intention. Settle, they'll settle that intention bundled and wrapped in the asset. That's the future of the cryptocurrency space. The regulator gets it backwards. They say, well, the only way we can accomplish that is we want to take over Bitcoin or take over Ethereum, change their consensus layer and force them to comply with our rules. What you need to do is you need to do it at the asset and transaction level and say, okay, for these types of transactions and assets, we would like them to be embedded in the actual transaction itself, but you don't change the settlement system. What's nice is you have freedom then. Because guess what? The system settles the regulated and the unregulated and it doesn't discriminate. It and so so there's still some consent inside that type of system. Um, but there's a path to, uh, regulatory compliance. And so this is the the balancing act that we're trying to figure out at Midnight right now. We're really gleaning into this language of intention. We think the agent is going to be the center of all cryptocurrency. It's going to have a wallet and identity onto itself and it's going to be your co-pilot and it's what's going to prevent a lot of the fraud and waste because agents are harder to fool. Every time something happens, they need a proof before they do it. And so if they don't get deceived by spoofed dApps or fake dApps or things like that, say, hey, the keys don't match. The digital signature doesn't match. They say, oh, what humans do that. They say, when's the last time you checked a SHA-256 signed hash for your software that you downloaded? Like you download GPG, did you really check the integrity hash, the verify the the supply chain wasn't interdicted and you downloaded a fake version of the software. Did you really do that? Yeah, okay, there's this neckbeard Arch Linux user that did. The vast majority of people never do that. And the agent does it every single time. You can't lie to it. It's part of the rules, right? It just follows them, goes down the list. And with proofs, it'll run the proof and if it doesn't validate, means it hallucinated or there's a problem. It'll stop and come back to you and say, I don't understand. Give me some more instructions. Something happened. Humans don't do that. They make mistakes. You know, and uh, and so having an infinitely patient co-pilot is important as long as you can tell its intention. And when you combine it with cross-chain abstraction, you combine it with the ability to embed covenants, that's the new financial system. And whoever figures it out first is going to process a trillion dollars of transactions a day, you know, for the entire world. And, uh, you know, everybody's going to go through it. And it's a great world too because it's it's can't be evil. The everybody, JP Morgan, BlackRock follow the same rules as you and me. You know, no one is discriminated. You know, everybody's equal in that world. I like that world. [David] [26:08] Charles, when you look at this entire space, you've been here for so long. There's

[Part 6 of 8] [00:00] so many protocols. You you mentioned earlier today, everybody was trying to be faster at one point. And I remember that point. Oh, I'm faster than you and I'm faster than you and great. Everybody's faster now. Now what? [00:12] We've been through all these cycles. We've had all these protocols that have come up, even through the ICO era, all this, all these things. [00:22] with with the way we're going and whether with the way we're heading. A thing trading and like you got institutions that are like they're also building on their own chains. Uh whether they're using other chains or building their own. JP Morgan right now has their own coin. They they're putting it on uh base and Ethereum. They came out and said it. And and now Jamie Diamond loves Bitcoin. What a turn of events. It's weird. It's you know what's fascinating? This is what it caught my attention big time, Charles. And I think you'll you'll probably get a laugh out of this. [00:56] They all dogged the shit out of crypto and you can even say Bitcoin, whatever. Dog the shit out of crypto in general. Now, these same companies are racing to put their companies on crypto. Love the irony of that. We hate crypto, but now we got to be on crypto. My thing is, how many of these protocols will actually survive? Like if you go three to five years out, Charles, 90 to 95% of all these protocols that are out here, they're dead. Like I I I can't see all these same protocol in the top 100 CMC being around. I mean, I think there are only going to be 10 to maybe 30 serious protocols for each sector, privacy. Obviously, I'm going to say midnight, but I've been saying midnight way before. You know, I always say this. I I I've been talking to Charles about midnight way before that midnight logo. [01:54] It was sponsored by Gemini back when we were talking about midnight. [01:57] You already know that. So like I'm like I I've always been interested in privacy. I think privacy is key. I I I'm like it's not that I'm trying to hide anything. I just don't want you knowing how much money I have. Okay? I don't I don't want you I don't want to be a target. Okay? And I don't think anybody else if when there's more safety with the banking system than on chain, there's a problem. There is a problem. So I just want to ask you that question. What do you see our space in three to five years from now? Do you see a lot of these things just, you know, a lot of these protocols just going belly up and ceasing to exist? [02:34] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] Well, you you separate it into kind of like three buckets. One is settlement bucket, meaning its purpose is to just kind of be a ledger for accounting of the movement of money and the settlement of assets. You you you then look at another bucket, it's like proof, that's the market we play in. So you're proving properties about other things somewhere else, or some sort of special purpose utility, that's the file coin or Celestia or something like that. So, you got to know what category you're in. Are you like general purpose settlement, um, are you a special purpose blockchain to do a special purpose thing, or are you one of these, look what Near is doing or what we're doing with Midnight, one of these coordinator chains. Um, and I think there's going to be a diverse ecosystem of these things because, hey, humans are diverse. Uh, you know, we there's no one language, one culture, one religion. Um, and, you know, B, your jurisdictions, laws and geographies and consumer preferences are diverse. Uh, and C, there's too many, there's too much money, there's too many assets, there's too many things going on in the world. Uh, that said, always in technology, there's a Cambrian explosion and a Cambrian extinction, right? So, you had lots of search engines, but no one's using Lycos and Ask Jeeves and Northern Lights anymore, you know, it kind of consolidated to Google. Um, but that didn't mean it was over. Search fundamentally changed with agents, and now we have perplexity and more people are just searching with ChatGPT than they are Google in many, in many respects. Your first thought is no longer to go to Google and look for something, you go to an AI and ask the question, and it'll search on your behalf. So, technology means that you have a constant shuffling of winners and losers, but for every new category, you have a huge explosion of capabilities and then eventually it consolidates down. So I think your assessment that there's going to be a consolidation of chains is accurate in terms of settlement chains. We're going to see a explosion of meta chains like Midnight, and you're going to see an explosion of utility chains to do specific things and serve that economy. Uh, and vast majority of them will fail. You know, in five, 10 years, it'll all get sorted out. We'll have a few standards. You'll have your Cokes and Pepsis and RC Colas and uh, you know, the market moves on until the next major technological shakeup. [04:54] Do you think there is a next uh, I I I think this is the last thing that the that the human race has invented that we we've invented I'm thinking about AI right now, Charles. You're listen, you're like you are AI. Anybody wants to go ahead and clone an AI, it'll be you cloning your brain and but [05:18] to me AI I I think we created This might sound crazy. I think we created our end in some way. I'm sorry. I watched the Terminator, I Robot, all these things that the Matrix, they're they're all documentaries to me now. They're no no longer movie movies. I mean, Machine City. Neo's fighting the Machine City. [05:41] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] Yeah. [05:41] It got way too intelligent. [05:44] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] You got to understand something. It's like everybody, like the head of the patent office at the turn of the 19th, 20th century said everything that's could be invented has been invented. That was like turn of the century, right? Because his conception was there. Could you imagine going back to 1950 and people saying, well, what do you do for a living? Well, I uh, I'm a podcaster and I talk about cryptocurrencies and most of the people watch me on Twitter, uh, you know, through their phones. And they're like, wait, there's a lot of words you've just said there. There's a lot of concepts you've just said there and uh, I have no fucking idea what the hell you were talking about. Yeah, yeah, that's what I do. So, you know, just to even get somebody up to speed in 1950 to even have enough infrastructure, to even assess what you're doing is a good idea. That's multiple weeks to multiple months of of deep education. You're going to go decade by decade and walk them through, lots of tests, they have to play around with things. It's crazy, right? So, the thing is, it's speeding up, not slowing down. And so, five or 10 years, you're going to have quantum computers, you're going to have like the AI revolution changing everything. There's going to be a symbiosis of man and machine and the AI is going to be thinking with us. Our conception of reality and where value sits is going to be totally different. There's going to be a time, I predict, where there's more value in metaverses and digital spaces than there is in the physical space. So, you know, that [07:14] Do you think Elon is right? Do you think Elon is right about the money aspect that he talks about? [07:18] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] Yeah, money in a traditional sense is going to change, but where it goes, we don't know. But here's just a thought. Like, what imagine a world where you have very few physical assets, you live in a relatively modest apartment, you don't even own a car, but you're actually a billionaire because you have tons of digital real estate in a very popular metaverse. You got beachfront property in, you know, digital Miami or something like that. And you're just doing really good. It's it's like, none of this exists, it's not reality, but now we've chosen as a collective fantasy to create like more money over there. And you can always convert it into physical stuff and always get what you need, but all your wealth is actually in this cloud that's trans sovereign. Um, our money systems aren't built for that. They don't understand that. And, you know, it's going to it's just going to happen. The other thing too is like compute has become a currency. [08:09] You know, Oh my God, this word is now compute is used. I I I feel like for the last six weeks, all I've been hearing is compute. Compute and it's come from Nvidia's CEO, everybody using compute. Elon recently during his earnings call with SpaceX, compute. Who owns the compute? It's just like listening to that and it's just like he's right. I I guess that that that's it. Like we are slowly, we might not see it, but I think in the next three to five years, everything changes completely. Like it's I I I who do you think by the way, before you go, who do you think wins the the AI war? Is it Open AI? Is it Anthropic? Or is it this guy who has never failed at anything that he's ever put his mind to and I think his name is Elon Musk. I don't know. I'm just [09:10] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] Oh my God. You know, so the problem with the AI race is you've got this autistic weird kid that nobody ever liked that somehow like stumbled his way into success. That's Dario. You know, and then you got like the the the the serial killer, you know, the call is coming from within the house, Sam Altman. And then then you got Elon who's just basically Howard Hughes, you know, and he's a genius, but he's insane at the same time and he just whatever he does, just works. And then you have like Tom Brady, but he's fucking overweight and just sitting on the couch and that's Google. You know, Google has all the data, they have all the compute, they invented the the whole concept, they have the best AI lab, but, you know, they're so fucked up from the California woke that they got fat and happy and so they can't ship anything. And so they're and that's why they lose all their people. Like the Gnome Shazir thing was the greatest example of that, where they buy character AI for 2.2 billion dollars just to bring this dude back. And then he's like, I just can't stand it. He leaves. He forfeited some of his stuff just to leave and go to Open AI because it was so bad. And for even for 2.2 billion, he's just like, I can't be a Google. It's so bad. I'm sorry, you when you lose your people like that, it means your culture is bad. So, they have the biggest advantage because they have the search, the YouTube, the all the business documents and these things and massive scale, uh, but they can't execute. Um, so, you know, it's a mixture of things. Elon has the best world model because of Tesla and SpaceX. He understands physics, uh, his AI understands physics better than anybody else. The minute they start wiring that in, Grok is going to get scary good. And the humanoid robots are going to be like a massive play in that. Um, Anthropic has the best coding model. They've just cracked that nut and it gets recursively better. Open AI is a pretty good well-rounded model. It just uh goes off on tangents and they need to correct that. Muse has really surprised me. You know, Zuckerberg buying up Wang, I love that kid. The world's most expensive Wang, 28 billion dollars. You know, but he's a good kid. He's brilliant and he's funny if you follow us, he's like, I look like an Asian lesbian, you know, it's like he's great. He's just just like a really cool kid and he could just say whatever the hell he says because he's unfireable. So he's in this giant woke bureaucracy, but he just basically trolls everybody. Um, but in one year's time, they went from a joke to actually comparable with Astra and Fable with Muse Wonder. Um, so that's really impressive and they got a lot of compute. They just spent like 55 billion dollars building data centers down in Louisiana and other places. And that stuff's starting to turn on. So Facebook is a dark horse, but they're rapidly moving. Uh, you know, SpaceX is hard to beat because of the world model and Grok is rapidly evolving and the cursor acquisition really helped them. Anthropic has the best recursive self-improvement. Open AI is not too far behind and Google is just, you know, they got the woke lobotomy and until they overcome that foundational cultural problem, there's no way for them to win. Now, if they overcome it, they win by default. And Microsoft, they they're like Google, but then they they double down. They hired Mustafa Suleiman to be their head of AI. He's a non-technical guy who's like a like a Muslim activist from the UK and, you know, when he was in high school, he would ride around in a wheelchair to like create more visibility for disability rights. The guy's a woke nonsense. And so, I'm not exactly sure why you would bring this guy in to run your entire AI project when you have like literal geniuses at Microsoft that understand AI. But it shows you just that's a bad culture, which is why they haven't been able to solve anything, even though they own all the hosting. They have this massive Azure cluster and all this amazing data centers. They they could be dominant. The other thing is they have training data from integrating AI into Windows. And you have like a beta test of two billion people if you wanted for co-pilot. Uh, and they just fucked it up. I mean, that company couldn't get laid in a whorehouse. You know, it's uh, it's just it's just crazy, MSI. Uh, so that's sad. Uh, you know, and and Apple, they they they decided not to play, but they just stumbled into being one of the best platforms for it. If they just built their own NV link into uh, the uh, the Mac Pros, uh, and uh, they they would win automatically because the the M5 chips and them six chips and these things are actually the single best processing unit you can get for AI. And if you stack them, it's insane. Like these uh, M5 Ultras, if you get six of them together through Thunderbolt 5, you can have three terabytes of RAM and 200 uh, processing cores and 800 GPU cores, all for under 100K. And if you just had a better interconnect with them, they could run frontier models faster than 500,000 million dollars worth of Nvidia chips. So, hopefully John Turnus is recognizing this is a massive market opportunity and, you know, they're going to come on in. Um, you know, Nvidia is starting to get involved in open source development too. And, you know, they they have Nemetron and these other things and they have, you know, obviously they're Nvidia, so they own the compute and they make the compute. So, you know, the open source models don't discount them. They they have a huge amount of question and there's this idea of like, what's the ratio between a frontier cloud-hosted model versus local intelligence? Uh, the local intelligence is growing exponentially as well. So, those are certainly important. But yeah, it's a crazy race. I've never seen anything like it. You know, it's just like you fall asleep for two months and like everything changes. Uh, you know, and institutions collapse rapidly. Like I thought Demis Hassabis was unfireable at Google and they just they canned him. You know, it's uh, it's like, wow, everything's just changing so quickly. So I have no idea who's going to win. [15:07] Uh, do we have a in the future, do we have a Hosk uh, Hosk AI? Uh, that that's developed. [15:15] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] Oh God, you couldn't pay me to try to make a large language model. Um, you know, the the one thing I have been looking into is uh, when is the transition from transformers to diffusion models going to happen? I think long-term diffusion models are going to win. And one of the things we talked about with Midnight City is bring your own intelligence and it's not lost on me that if enough people do that, you can tokenize it and create decentralized compute. And so you can build like the largest data center in the world for hire. And with night frames, it's private, meaning you can send payloads in, they do the work and then you get it back. So, I think we could be a player if Midnight City gets large enough to to basically enter the hosting side and have some uh, competition and make it free. Uh, but, you know, making the models is a loser's urine. Uh, everybody who does it, they they bleed cash. Facebook is a wildly profitable company. They're wildly, insanely profitable company. I think they make like 240 billion a year or something. And they're almost cash broke because they're spending so much money on these data centers. And it's the same with Open AI and Anthropic. I mean, the subscription side, they're making tens of billions of dollars, but they're going back to investors soon to be Wall Street through IPOs and asking for tens of billions of dollars to build the compute. Because, you know, no matter what you do, the models, they just need more and more compute. And, you know, if they could just slow down for two to three years, they could kind of catch up, but they can't slow down. So you don't want to be in the LLM business. That's a loser's proposition. It's much better to be somewhere else in the market if you actually want to make money. [16:48] Apple. [16:49] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] Yeah, Apple. Apple's awesome. You know, they're just like, we stumbled into this and this is awesome. We were we're we have this great ship. Go figure. [16:58] It's so crazy that you just mentioned that before you go because like everybody was asking, well, what is Apple going to do after the iPhone? Like, all right, iPhone 19, okay, upgraded cameras, you got the dual that came out. Applications aren't even set up for it. Uh and people are, you know, already dogging it. Okay, Apple hardware, all that. AI pops up. And everybody, every every AI influencer is like, you got to get an iMac Mini. You got to run there right now. Even get an iPad Air. Go get anything Apple right now. Like their stores were out of stock. [17:38] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] Oh, for the yeah, for the Mac Mac Studio. Yeah, and the 512s are just all going to sell out. You know, they say, oh, well, but the links aren't fast enough. It's like, well, just run a model that fits totally in the memory on one unit. It's like, I'm these 200 million parameter, 300 million parameter billion parameter models are they're they're fast. They're really they're really fast. So, they're good. Um, yeah, so Apple's Apple's a dark horse. So they just have to get their interconnects figured out. But John is an engineer. He's a super smart guy. Uh, he was a he's a very good replacement for uh, Tim Cook. You know, they they let Tim Cook and now it's John's Turnus. [18:18] I hope John does well. Uh, I hope I listen, I hope all these companies do well. Uh, and and it's exciting to see the future. I got to say it's exciting to see the future and it's finally it's it's it's cool to see a lot of people contact me now, more so in the last couple of months saying privacy matters. I'm not just saying that that is actual the it's AI, agentic trading and you have privacy which are on top of everybody's minds because that that's where the future is going and people want to be ahead of the curve. The people that at least that I'm speaking to, there's been like space of 300, 400 people where you're you're speaking to people and they're like, yo, these are the most important topics I want to front run the entire market when it comes to this. So it's really cool to see. It's cool to see that you've been out there like a rock star taking pictures with everybody, doing keynotes and I hope you had fun at Token 2049. It looked like a blast. [19:15] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] I was in New York, DC, Singapore, and Tokyo, and Alaska, all within two weeks. And I probably met more than 2,000 people. I got sick on the road. Singapore had the best worst air in the world because Indonesia was on fire. They had peat fires there. And so all the air blew from Indonesia to Singapore and you'd wake up and you had this huge hazy cloud, you can't see anything. And I just every morning you get up and you just cough up black stuff. You're just, oh, so bad. So, you know, there's a toll going around and taking pictures with everybody and I uh, I still have a chest cold actually. And I'm just starting to get over it. It's tough, man. [19:55] You took pictures with every single person possible because they posted them online. [20:01] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] I know. When I was doing the Tokyo event, the Japanese love taking their picture with you. And I said, well, I have a rule. I will take a picture with everybody who wants to take a picture. It took two hours. [20:11] Holy shit. That is that is dope. That is dope. [20:14] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] Yeah, shake each hand, two hours, the whole thing. [20:17] I I obviously I appreciate you even, you know, under the weather. I appreciate you making the show and obviously we'll chop it up some more next month. And hopefully we will be in a bull run or some sort right now I feel like there's a lot of bullish sentiment. I think people are excited uh, once again for the new tech and everything that's out here. Um, but we haven't flipped bullish on the charts. Hopefully that happens in the next 90 to 120 days. But now you have time. You have time to go ahead and research. I always put it out there for people. Uh, you know, if you think you missed on Zcash, well, you got midnight that's sitting right there for you. So there's no excuse. And I've already laid down the pros and cons on both. So, hey, do as you wish. It's not my buy button and it's not my sell button. [21:08] [Guest: Charles Hoskinson] All right. Thanks, David. This has been a lot of fun. [21:09] Appreciate you, Charles. Thank you, Charles. That's Charles Hoskinson, obviously the creator of Midnight, the founder of Cardano. And uh, let's give him a round of applause for making the show. Everybody's come back. It's crazy. Everybody has come back from from Singapore complaining about obviously the air. Now we know. Because I didn't really look into it. Now we know what was happening out there. Let me go ahead and change this because I'm not Charles Hoskinson. Let me go ahead and change I'm not Landy either. Could leave it can can Elon Musk win the AI race? Of course he can. Can the Republicans win the midterms? Let's look at that. Let's look at that. Can the Republicans win the midterms? Let's go to Polymarket. Go right to Polymarket. Let me go ahead and hook that up in here. By the way, I hope you guys enjoy the show. Don't take the words out of context either. I like the way Charles is doing what I do. Let me make sure you I I made myself clear. But the midterms 2026, Polymarket has a 68% chance of the Democrats controlling the Senate. Also, they have a 68% chance that the Democrats sweep the midterms. Also, the US House midterm winner, they have 91% the Democratic Party. The US Senate midterm winner, they have 68% the Democrats. The Democrats taking it. And I've already said this to you guys and shout out to Polymarket. Polymarket is the official prediction market sponsor of the breakdown. I've said this to you multiple times, ladies and gentlemen. I I have this feeling. I have this feeling that the Republicans are going to win. I just have this feeling that the Republicans are going to come out being the winners. Uh, they're going to hold the House and Senate. I I have this I don't know why I have this gut feeling. Okay, I respect the hell out of the pollsters and all these people that go ahead and put all these numbers together. But at the end of the day, the Republican Party is usually a party that comes out the day of the election to go ahead and have their voice asserted. And I think this election is a little bit different than previous elections to where we are now and and I know people are going to think I'm dramatic, but I'm not. We are now fighting for America. That's right. You heard that right. That wasn't me slipping up. We are fighting for America. We have a we have people that are currently running that do not like capitalism, that do not like the way America is constructed. That's what we're looking at right now. And if we allow these people to get into office, we will see France. Five to seven years down the line, France will be here in the United States of America and the America that you know will no longer exist. And when I mean by that is there's a culture here in America. You can go to the South and you understand it's the South. You can go to the Northeast and you know what the Northeast is all about. You can go to the West Coast. You know what it's about, you know what time it is. If we allow these Democrat socialists, aka communists to take over, if you're voting based on the fact that you hate Trump and not based on what is best for America, remember, Trump's the president. We understand we all get that, right? But you do have the House and the Senate. They run things. Okay? Trump can't pass things unless they go through the House and Senate. Remember that. And there's some really good Republicans out there that work both sides of the aisle. And there are some really good really good Democrats. Yeah, I said that. And some really good independents that care about America. You have this new group that is telling you that America is broken. Completely broken. And and there needs to be a restart. And we and we need to tax billionaires. I mean, El Said was out there I I don't know what show he was on, but he was saying he was literally saying we need to tax the billionaires because they'll be fine. They don't need another billion. They'll be fine with 30 million. What who puts since when are we putting salary caps on the America?

[Part 7 of 8] [00:00] all the money that you can earn in the United States of America. If you are working hard, if you are building, if you are an entrepreneur. If you have that entrepreneurial spirit, you should not be stopped or capped in any sort of way from earning as much as you can. People telling you what kind of lifestyle you should be living. He was saying, El Said was saying, I'm sure Beyonce would have no problem giving away her money. Her money to build schools and speaking for her on what she would want to do with her billions. I'm telling you, we are at a pivotal point and we need to take it seriously. You might think that I'm doing like, I, first of all, I'm not PC. I say what I feel. Okay? A lot of you guys don't say what you feel because you're scared of the repercussions, you're scared of getting canceled. I don't really care. I don't care. I don't think about that. We need to make sure that America stays America, man. I don't want Italy here. I don't want France. I like I don't want to live in the current conditions they live in. Okay? I don't want Australia, the censor, UK censors your speech online. What what are we talking? This is where we're heading. We're heading in you. You know what? And it's all because people like, oh my God, I don't like Trump. Great. Trump is the president, but at the end of the day, again, the House and Senate is what matters. And if you guys want to say, but look at how many things they passed. First of all, the Republican Party didn't pass shit. Voter ID. Ain't nobody passed it. One of the most easiest easiest bills to pass, the voter ID Act. We could not pass it. The Republican Party is in control of the House and the Senate, right? Couldn't pass it. That's what I'm trying to tell you guys. Bringing in the Democrats, all they're going to do is impeach, impeach, impeach. Shut down the government. Like, nothing is going to get done for the American people. And yes, we need a third party. We can't have a two-party system. You need a third party. You really do. You need an independent, a real independent party. So we don't get caught in these situations where there are government shutdowns that affect the American people. But I'm telling you, man, I get, I understand, and I said this yesterday, your allegiance is to America, not to your party. Okay? My allegiance is to America, not to the Republican Party or Democrat Party or the independent green, yellow, doesn't matter which party you want to name out. My allegiance is to America, the red, white, and blue. This country, bottom line, and that's what you should be all about. You don't have to like me, by the way, like I don't even know what the hell you guys are saying on TikTok. I really don't know. I got to go ahead and look. I got to really go ahead and look. What are you guys saying? Cuz TikTok Don't tell me. Again. Am I not live? I can't take this TikTok shit, honestly. Am I not on TikTok again? Is there something going on with TikTok today? I can't take this anymore. Oh, now I'm live again. I'm sorry. Now I see it. I had to restart the I had to restart the thing. I had to restart the entire app in order to see myself. Now I'm live again. And it looks like we got restricted. I I don't even know what the fuck we got restricted for. I have no idea what the fuck I got restricted for. Again. So we couldn't go one day. We couldn't go one day. We had we almost had 250 concurrent And that's what I'm saying. People want to see this. People want to listen into this. I know this. I get contacted by DM. People asking me, are you live? And I'm like, yeah, I'm live. They're like, I can't see you. You know, it's funny. Everybody talks about, well, the juice to go over TikTok. Well, it ain't working for me. It ain't working for me. That's all I got to say. I got to claim a different tribe. I remember during the 2024 race, the thing that scared me was Kamala Harris and Tim Walls. They said, we want to look at free, uh, you know, at the First Amendment. We want to look at the way people speak. And we want to make sure we have guidelines. And you can go ahead and play this back, by the way. The clips are out there. Everything that I'm saying is real. If you want, I can play this. I mean, I have no problem playing what Kamala Harris was saying about we got to look at free freedom of speech. We got to look at the First Amendment. I have no problem playing this. Matter of fact, I think I should play it. Matter of fact, I think I should play it. Let's play this for everybody so we can so you can understand what's happening right now. I want y'all to understand what's happening right now. Here it goes. I'm going to play this right now. Hold on, hold on. Kamala Harris talking about freedom of speech, which is being attacked right now. Let's play this. [Guest: Female Voice] Another humiliating gaffe that's drawing mockery, Kamala Harris said freedom of speech is a privilege, not a right. [Guest: Female Voice] He has he has lost his privileges and it should be taken down. And and the bottom line is that you can't say that you have one rule for Facebook and you have a different rule for Twitter. The same rule has to apply, which is that there has to be a a a responsibility that is placed on these social media sites to understand their power. They are directly speaking to millions and millions of people without any level of of of oversight or regulation. And that has to stop. [Guest: Female Voice] This Twitter user slammed the VP, saying Kamala Harris wrongly says freedom of speech is a privilege when it's actually a right clearly defined in the First Amendment. The fact Kamala doesn't know this says everything. [Guest: Female Voice] Another humiliating gaffe that [David] You just heard this, right? This is what they want to take away from us, freedom of speech. Do not think for a second. You see, you know what it is? A lot of people will say, ah, not going to happen. The same people who said that the shit would not happen in France are the same people that are saying, ah, it'll never happen. Ah, it'll never happen, Dave. Never. Never happen. You're bugging out. Bugging out, Dave. Let let's look at let's look at another one. Let's look at uh Tim Walls. Here's Tim Walls, man. Tim Walls talking about freedom of speech. [Guest: Tim Walls] I think we need to push back on this. There's there's no guaranteed of free speech on misinformation or or hate speech and especially around our democracy. [Guest: Tim Walls] I think we need to push back on this. There's there's no guaranteed of free speech on misinformation or or hate speech and especially around our democracy. [David] I want y'all to think about this for a second. Who makes the determination on what hate speech is? Or misinformation. You want to talk about misinformation? Queue me up right now. You want to talk about misinformation? You want to talk about misinformation? All right, let's talk about it. When we were talking about COVID, right? When we talked about COVID and people wanted to talk about COVID, When people wanted to talk about COVID, they were banned. They were suspended and silenced for misinformation, for having a difference of opinion on the topic. You had medical professionals who graduated from Yale. Okay? From Ivy League from Ivy League schools. Medical professionals who know their shit, who did not agree with the way we went about treating COVID. They did not agree with the vaccines. That was labeled misinformation. People were getting suspended from all platforms. It has been put out there as factual information that Twitter suppressed information, Facebook suppressed information because Mark Zuckerberg said it himself. So here you have somebody like him, this was the beginning. I'm telling you right now, if Trump did not get elected, this is the direction we were heading into. And 100% they would have got their way. And we would have started looking like Australia and other places, the UK, where if you say something, your ass is about to get smacked upside your head. That's real. And they could take me down from all these platforms right now. I wouldn't even care. Because this is true. This is documented. You can see it for yourself. So what is hate what is hate speech and misinformation? Because if we're going to look at misinformation, well, basically, every doctor, every medical professional who had a different opinion on the vaccines was suspended. Their voice was taken away. We already got that. The the the test was applied already. Remember that. You see, a lot of people are stuck on, oh, Democrats, oh, Republicans. Y'all got to start thinking about you. Forget about party affiliation. That's why I keep on saying America. Y'all got to think about what America was built on. Freedom of speech, Second Amendment, all these things that people like Tim Walls and Kamala Harris continued to talk about taking away. Biden, okay? Biden's administration showed you that if you say something that did not fit the narrative of everything that was happening in 2020, you were suspended. I said something about COVID in 2020 on Instagram, and my post was taken down and I was warned that I would be suspended if I were to go out there and talk about COVID in any way that it did not fit the current narrative. Now, if you want, and think about this, vaccine cards in order to go anywhere, in order to fly on a plane, in order to go into a restaurant, a place of business, if you did not have a mask on, which did nothing for anybody, okay? If you didn't have a mask on, you didn't have the ID, you couldn't go anywhere. They were forcing you. You were being forced into taking the vaccine to live. And when I mean by living is by being a part of society and enjoying, I guess at that time, if if you want to call that enjoyment, enjoying life. This is what was done to us. We saw a preview. We saw a preview of this. You saw a little preview of socialism/some communism. And this is what you want to go back to? I understand if you again, I'm going to say this again for those that are hearing impaired here. I understand if you don't like Trump. Like I can totally understand, okay? I can understand if you don't like some Democrats, if you don't like some Republicans and their takes and their policies. I understand. No problem. And that's why we debate. That's why we have every four years we can go out there and vote. Okay? Every four years we can vote for a new person to take on that position, the person that we feel that best represents the American people and our best interest. We have that. But the preview of 2020, what we saw in 2020, is coming, but it's coming at a it's worse. I don't I don't even know how to put it into words for you guys. It is way worse. They want to take away our culture. They want to take away our rights, they want to take away our culture. Remember that. When you go to the ballot box in under two weeks now, when you go to the ballot box, November 3rd, when you go ahead and vote, remember there are people that are ready to take away the things that you're accustomed to having in America. And they want you, they want you at the end of the day, They want you to experience France and Italy and all the other countries that have open borders. That's all they want. And they want to bring in a culture that does not fit America. You know, every argument and debate, I I can say I I can definitely sit down with anybody and debate anybody at any time. It doesn't mean that I'll win all of all the arguments because, you know, it's opinions. Some of these things are opinions, personal preferences. You know, when people say that Trump went into office to enrich himself, Trump was already a billionaire. Like I I I want I I want to have this combo. Trump was already a billionaire. Whether you like him or not, and he's a Democrat. Is he more Republican now? Probably, yeah, because of everything that has been done to him. But Trump is a Democrat who speaks the same way as Obama did, Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton, and I can name you a whole other list. I got tagged on TikTok again. Learn more about the 2026 US elections. They don't want, you know, what I'm I'm when I'm starting to see is a trend, they don't want the truth. They don't want the truth to be put out there. They don't want people to actually hear this kind of stuff. They don't want to hear people speak this way because they have an agenda. And that agenda is their new world order type of stuff. And that is the truth. I don't really, you know what? At this point, TikTok, you know what? You can restrict me. I have YouTube, I have Instagram, I have X, I have Rumble. I'll speak on other places. I have no I am no longer trying to fit in with TikTok. If you cannot understand and accept my personality and my takes and my conversations and my guests and as we talk and drop value here, that's on you. You've lost a great creator. So I'll just go on there and if it is what it, you know, you want to restrict me and put all these notes, go seek, you know, election election advice. What is this? Learn more about 2026 US elections. You know, you can kiss my ass at this point. You know, at the end of the day, I don't really care. What do you call it? Deplatform me? I thought I thought freedom of speech existed in the United States of America. We talked about crypto today. We talked about the markets today. We talked about your portfolios today that you don't look at. We talked about how you guys won't even buy a book like this, the million dollar AI playbook, which is available on Amazon, to go ahead and get your feet wet, to get a better understanding of how AI or how to work AI can benefit you in the long term. You don't want to learn about that. You know what you want to do? You want to sit here and you want to just wait for somebody to give you something. Ain't nobody coming to give you anything, okay? That sounds like welfare recipients. And don't worry, you could just, you know, obviously, you know what? Let me take that back. All you welfare recipients who just live and you know what? It's not even your fault. It's not even your fault because there are certain people that have done everything possible to make sure that you depend on the government, okay? And not go out there and achieve the American dream and take those opportunities and actually went out. They have made it so that you depend on people in office that you voted in. And that's it. Divide the country and that's the way they see it. Divide the country. So we can control the narratives. It is what it is. You know what? Why waste my energy? I'll talk about it tomorrow anyway. I I what? At 3:04 p.m. I'm already three hours in. I appreciate everybody who's tuned in from TikTok until we got restricted YouTube. Shout out to you. Shout out to X. Shout out for tuning in today. By the way, stop shitcoining. You know what you should be doing? Look at SpaceX, look at Tesla. If there is one company, that you're going to look back at, you know what? Rewind the tape in in five years. Rewind this show in five years. Even though I've been speaking about SpaceX when Landy was on here, we were speaking about SpaceX and waiting for the bottom, bottom, bottom to go ahead and really go in. This is something that I would sit back instead of shitcoining, I start looking at the traditional markets and say, you know what? SpaceX. That's going to be a $100 trillion company. Can you imagine if you took your money instead of dumping it into shitcoins, okay? That are coming off a goddamn new launchpad every fucking three minutes. Maybe just maybe just fucking SpaceX. Maybe get behind one of the the greatest innovators and the greatest minds and builders that we've ever seen in Elon Musk. Maybe just maybe. Look at everything that he's done and how he has absolutely dominated. Tesla, Neuralink, SpaceX, uh uh Starlink, SpaceX. I mean, I boring company. PayPal, we could keep going. How do you bet against Elon? Grok. Elon also said during an interview that he felt like he shouldn't have gone all the way in into politics. He got way too caught up in it. And he should have left two months into, you know, Trump being elected and gone back to, you know, working and being focused on Tesla and SpaceX and everything else that he's building. Grok and all that good stuff. And now, like you could see, Elon's out of politics and he's completely focused. Well, he he's still political, but he's more focused on the companies and you can see it's night and day. It's night and day what thing, you know, I I wish he never took away, by the way, Elon, I wish you never would have discontinued the, you know, the the Model S or or the X. I think people still wanted that. And there was a market for that. Limited production would have been great too. Um, but we still got the Model 3. We got the Model Y. We got the Cybertruck. We got a flying car. We've been waiting our entire lives to see a flying car and we finally got somebody to do it. Somebody made a roadster that flew. And that's cool. Can you imagine if the Democrat socialists have their way, we don't have flying cars. We don't have entrepreneurs and that entrepreneurial spirit out here in America building things. You know what happens? They go elsewhere. They go to other countries. They'll go to Poland. Like they'll go to different countries that want to incentivize this kind of behavior. And the behavior is good. Incentivize entrepreneurs to build and win. You know why? Because if they build and they win, that means that the country wins. There means more jobs. And more people thrive. Instead of looking at somebody's pocket and saying, oh, they got a billion. I don't give a shit if Elon has a trillion dollars. What I care about is Elon has created

[Part 8 of 8] [David] [00:00] created a lot of stuff for us in the United States of America to use. You have cars, EVs, like FSD, SpaceX. I mean, I could keep going. [David] [00:15] And job creation. Job creation out of that. [David] [00:22] And a lot of people that have a lot of a lot of people have jobs because of Elon, same thing with Jeff Bezos and others. Why would I want to tax them? [David] [00:32] They should pay pay their fair taxes, but like, why would I want to smack them on the wrist and say, no. And what is the point? Anyway. [David] [00:43] Thank you for tuning in to the breakdown episode 810. [David] [00:50] I'm telling you, man, rather than shitcoinning, SpaceX is right there, man. SpaceX is right there, future $100 trillion company, right there. [David] [01:02] It's early. What what do we say what should we say about SpaceX at this point? It's like Bitcoin also in it's like the same thing Bitcoin was in 2011 or 12. You're looking at SpaceX right now, you can go ahead and grab it up. [David] [01:19] Can you imagine? Imagine if you own a good amount of shares of SpaceX. [David] [01:29] Think about that. What would you rather have? SpaceX or some uh dog ship with a with a dildo in its ear in you? Which one you want? [David] [01:41] This is the time where you look at your portfolio and you say, you know what? I got a lot of dog shit in my port. I don't know if this is going to make it. You know, maybe it's time to switch up. [David] [01:53] Also, I want to look at FOMO real quick. Uh, I found I let me give a shout out. I have to. You know what, the one thing I want to look at on FOMO is this. You know why? Because this guy and not even this guy, this entire community is silently. I woke up today just amazed. This this thing went to I believe it went to 220k today, I think. And obviously, the market is there are obviously people in here that are going to make sure that it goes nowhere. But I believe if there's a strong enough community, you got a leader like Jeff and others, man, and and again, if I don't mention your name, don't don't take it as disrespect. I'm just Jeff is out there consistently just like he's in love with this thing. He's in love with Satoshi. Peer to BTC. [David] [02:51] He's in love with it. So I have to give him the shout out. [David] [02:57] I do. [David] [03:00] And when the volume comes back and when the liquidity comes back, there's never been a Satoshi. There has never been a Satoshi that has really run. And to see that community just stay there and they're just like working and there are no leaders. There there are no devs. Like the the the the way that they speak, they have a winning blueprint. It doesn't happen today, it'll happen tomorrow. If it doesn't happen tomorrow, maybe it happens in six months. Who knows? [David] [03:36] But the effort is being put in. So shout out to shout out to Jeff and that entire that entire crew over there. [David] [03:51] I'm telling you, if I didn't go into if I didn't go into Satoshi, that thing would have been in the millions, man. I went in, people bought a probably a bunch of supply and they will not let it go. They will absolutely absolutely do everything possible to hold it down, but it's okay because at the end of the day, if a community is strong, they'll outlast whoever it is that's trying to fuck with it. So, [David] [04:15] shout out to you guys again. Thank you very much for tuning in. We'll be back tomorrow. Friday. Tomorrow's Friday. We'll be back tomorrow. Two hours to talk about recap. We'll also be recapping a lot of things on spaces. I'll be on X spaces after the show tomorrow to go ahead and recap the entire week. We got a ton of guests coming. [David] [04:38] Ton of guests coming. I can't wait to talk about AI, more AI, more about AI agents, more about AI bots, more about companies that are looking at AI and starting to build on AI. I can't wait. At the end of the day, man, we are living in the greatest time in the history of mankind, man. Take advantage of it. On that note, love you guys. Thank you for tuning in as always. I'm out.